Yes, this is a post about that play or, more specifically, that penalty. We have two weeks to digest the entire Notre Dame and Florida State epic. That game shouldn’t be defined by that one penalty nor do I want it to be. However, I’m mad as hell and can’t get that moment out of my head so it’s time to vent.
Today, Brian Kelly mirrored my feelings perfectly as to why I’m so full of piss and vinegar right now:
Brian Kelly: "Florida State blew the coverage and they got rewarded for it.” #NotreDame
— Rachel Terlep (@eTruth_Irish) October 19, 2014
I stand behind Kelly 100% in that statement. I can understand why the refs believe Will Fuller went a step too far in fighting for position with the DB. What I don’t understand is how they believed Fuller’s action actually impeded anyone from making a play.
Let’s take a look at this play from two different angles taken by The Observer and ND Insider (South Bend Tribune):
#NotreDame’s reaction regarding the negated TD: http://t.co/38QCARK89J https://t.co/ta5zxUjAmh
— Observer Sports (@ObserverSports) October 19, 2014
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Our view of the penalty call that will be debated for quite some time. #NotreDame #FloridaState #NDvsFSU #NDFB
The two DBs engaged with Prosise and Fuller never make an attempt to go towards Robinson; in fact, they aren’t even looking at him until the ball is in the air and by then it’s far too late to do anything. #26, P.J. Williams, is the only one that makes a move towards Robinson, but even he recognizes what’s going on far too late. He is hopelessly out of position and Golson throws the ball almost immediately.
Simply put, the play call was perfect. Florida State was completely out of position and no DB attempted to switch off in order to try and get Robinson covered. Had either one of the FSU DBs done that, I’d be singing a far different tune. Prosise and Fuller could have just stood there and Robinson would have still scored. That’s how bad FSU botched the coverage here.
So we can talk all day long about who engaged who, who got more contact, and dumb comparisons to the roughing the snapper penalty last week. The Seminoles blown coverage still remains. No yellow flag will ever wipe that out.
If you watch the FSU’s secondary reactions after the play, you can easily see that was their initial reaction too. They all started screaming at each other in frustration for, what they thought, was a game-blowing play. Not a single player motioned for a flag.
What they did do, specifically P.J. Williams, was remove his helmet during the screaming match. Today, Brian Kelly stated that the officials told him that they missed this and blew the call. That wouldn’t have offset the OPI call; however, it would have granted Notre Dame an automatic first down and would have been on the 8.5 yard line instead of the 17–wait, no, the final play was run from the 18 because these refs, paragons of the rules that they are, granted a bonus penalty yard for mysterious reasons.
So, if we really want to go down the road that this call was “technically right”, we also need to apply the same scrutiny in which the refs were technically wrong. Missing a removed helmet, but managing to focus on the borderline OPI is beyond laughable.
Go back earlier in the game and you will also see a celebration no-call as Florida State high-stepped into the endzone. Normally, I would roll my eyes at such a call as I hate the rule, but ND fans are being lectured about OPI technicalities while that no-call goes largely forgotten and it drives me up the wall.
Make no mistake, that flag was not the sole reason why we lost that game and that will be a topic I will certainly expand upon another time. However, that flag did take away the win on a drive that was absolutely incredible and included a gigantic 4th and 18 conversion.
It’s frustrating. It’s aggravating. And it’ll probably take me another day or two to not be angry by the mere thought of that play and that flag. And the worst part of it all was that the person at the center of one of the most famous no-calls in ND history, the one in which we were all told that no ref should ever throw a flag on to decide the game, tweeted this:
Wow not sure about that call
— Reggie Bush (@ReggieBush) October 19, 2014
Hate to see a game decided on that
— Reggie Bush (@ReggieBush) October 19, 2014
Salt in the freakin’ wound.
Texan by birth, Irish by choice.
Born and raised in the great state of Texas, Tex is a first-generation Domer and a former student manager. After graduation, he left the cold winters of South Bend behind and returned back to his home state with a computer engineering degree in tow. Missing the daily grind of working football practices and talking football with fellow Irish fans every day, he took to blogging, a path which eventually led him to Her Loyal Sons. Continuously diving into stats and game film, Tex strives to break down every aspect of Fighting Irish football--even though it's determined to kill him.
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You could not have written that article any better!
Even if a ref might call a borderline offensive PI on a borderline on what is essentially the last play of the game, the fact is that the penalty was not appropriate for no other reason than none of the “interfered” with defensive players could have made a play on the ball. This is the corollary to the fact that no defensive PI will be called on an uncatchable ball. For example, if the offensive PI had happened on the other side of the play (which given how beat the defensive backs where on this play it may as well have been), then no foul is appropriate. Remember, this was PI, not holding, so the rule that no offensive PI will be called when it makes no difference on the play comes into play.
OPI has a different standard than DPI, especially in terms of receivers throwing blocks; however, the logic behind that is that a receiver is prohibiting a defender from getting in any kind of position to defend the play.
And really, the times that I’ve seen OPI called in those cases are when it’s incredibly obvious that a defender is trying to get around a receiver, but can’t. That’s my bigger issue with this call in particular: both DBs were trying to make a play on the receiver in front of them, not Robinson. That’s an even bigger deal to than their position being awful. They made ZERO attempt to go where they were supposed to.
Might be the best article all day from either side. BTW, under collegiate rules, taunting (high stepping) if it occurs prior to the TD is a penalty enforced from the goal line and the TD is taken off the board. There were a lot of calls in that game that were rediculous. Nobody mentioned the fact that a FSU lineman slammed his helmet to the ground and had to go pick up his ear pieces when Winston threw his INT. How about Robinson being interfered with three plays prior to the OPI. Could have been called but they chose not to. Can’t have it both ways boys, either call them or let them play, but don’t pick and choose.
Firstly, thanks.
Secondly, the whole taking the TD of the board for the taunting/celebration into the endzone is one reason why I really hate that rule; however, I’m right there with you on the “call it all” if you’re going to be that picky.
Well said. I had (sorta) made peace with this…now I’m pissed again.
The ACC official, Pat Ryan, who stole the game from us, has a history of anti-ND calls ( see the post from Cartier Field, ” Looking more and more like guy has axe to grind ” ( link )-irishrock on ndnation ).
We have all heard it said that no one is neutral about ND: you love them or hate them. There are many more in the latter category, even some people with Irish names like Pat Ryan. As Wilt Chamberlain said, ” Nobody roots for Goliath. ”
Be that as it may, it is so disheartening to see a school like ND that is ethical and plays by the rules, get jobbed against an unethical football factory. We suspended four key players for the season for academic violations this year, and suspended our star QB Golson last year for cheating on a test, which sabotaged the 2013 season.
Did FSU do the same with their star QB Winston? Of course not. If Winston were at ND, he never would have played in that game. He would probably have been dismissed from school by now.
Because of its ethics, ND has to play with one hand tied behind its back when competing with the football factories, so it is doubly disheartening to see us robbed of a victory that should have been ours.
I’ve read that post and the post it links and there is no link to any evidence that Pat Ryan was even in those other games much less that he was the one that threw any other questionable flag against ND. Thus far it seems to be nothing more than rumor/conspiracy theory. I would love to see ACC ref rosters that confirms (or denies) this because I don’t think it wise to state this as fact.
Further, despite questionable calls, I think it doubly dangerous to go down a road that a back judge has a huge anti-Irish agenda and that’s the reason why we lost the games he was a part of.
Consider this your one and only warning: I’m mad about the call, but I will not have anyone posting potential slander on HLS, even in the comments. Either back up this accusation with evidence (the post linked on NDN states Ryan threw other flags as a fact, but cites zero evidence of such) or I will delete that portion of your comment and any future comment that makes similar allegations without evidence.
Oh, I’m warming to the subject. DuLac would be fully justified in vetoing the assignment of Pat Ryan to any Notre Dame football game in the future.
Offensive pass interference is remarkable precisely because it is called so rarely.
It is one of the few “fouls” that is a totally and completely subjective call that is left to the judgment and discretion of a single official. There is no appeal, no review, no examination of video replay for incontrovertible evidence of error.
It is universally understood that you flag it only in the most clear-cut cases and that when in doubt, let it go.
In this case, there was ample basis to call holding on the defender of Prosise and a sound basis to do the same on the defender who prevented Fuller from running his post pattern.
In this case defender on Robinson was totally untouched, which is unheard of for a so-called “pick play,” and that same chap (jersey no. 26) removed his helmet. That’s a personal foul, 15 yards, automatic first down. And more to the point, it’s a “bright-line” violation that requires no judgment or discretion whatsoever.
Kirk Herbstreit characterized the call as “courageous.” That was asinine. It would have been “courageous” if it had wiped out a winning score by FSU on its home field with 13 seconds to play. The call may be more accurately described as corrupt.
Pat Ryan is a long-time employee of the Atlantic Coast Conference. The game was played on the home field of the top-ranked team in the ACC, the number two team in the country, the defending national champion, and it was riding the longest current winning streak (23 or 24 wins in a row). The opponent was not an ACC team (not yet) or an in-state rival.
The coach of FSU has been reported in the newspapers to have told the officials to watch for pick plays. Picture this exchange:
Jimbo Fisher: Pat we need this win.
Pat Ryan: Don’t worry, coach, I’ll get it for us.
Mr. Ryan, a long-time fireman, is reportedly adept in chaos. In this case, he spotted an almost-never-called, totally subjective “foul” on the part of the visiting team in deeply ambiguous circumstances, and missed the no-doubt-about-it personal foul on the ACC team. That would have been, worst case, first and goal from the nine with 13 seconds left (enough time for two plays, maybe three).
A man in the pay of the Atlantic Coast Conference working an ACC home game changed the number one team in the ACC from the loser to the winner by making a subjective, unreviewable, outcome-reversing judgment call against an out-of-state visitor and in favor of his employer’s team while two of his colleagues who were closer to the play kept the flags in their pockets.
There’s another layer to the onion, the self-defense dimension: Florida State is one of the most storied college football programs in the country. But on October 17, 2014 is wasn’t even the most storied program on its own home field. As noted above, it was the top team in the ACC, number two in the national polls, riding a 23-game win streak (the nation’s current longest), and hosting the most storied of all college teams (whose many achievements include coming within a one tipped ball of beating the “greatest college team ever assembled” by two touchdowns (Florida State 1993)).
The game was played on a Saturday night in the deep South. (Tallahassee has far more in common with Georgia than with Palm Beach and Miami.) Some 80,000 or so die-hard FSU fans were in that stadium, and they were deeply invested in a win on the part of their beloved Seminoles, who had come from behind all night long and finally taken the lead. FSU player no. 26, the defender of Robinson who was untouched on a “pick play,” and who committed the helmet-off personal foul, can also be seen pleading for a flag. It was predictable — to an absolute certainty — that a last second win by the visiting team might displease one or two of the FSU fans, and the question might come up why no penalty had been called, and maybe a replay on the jumbotron. And all the rest of it. And before you know it, a man gets to thinking that maybe he or his fellow officials would be subjected to some “unpleasantness” if he does not call a penalty.
There are still more layers to the onion but that’s all I have to say on the subject. Notre Dame beat Florida State at Florida State. One man in the pay of the ACC made the ACC team the winner by calling offensive pass interference, one of the rarest of infractions, a “judgment call” that cannot be reviewed by anyone, calling it to wipe out the winning score with only seconds left to play.
At one end of the spectrum we have action by a sports official that reflects the happiest combination of heroic virtue, hard-edged competence, and solid integrity. At the other end of the spectrum we have action that reflects feckless Babbitry, bias, and corruption. Would any fair-minded individual call Mr. Ryan’s conduct exemplary? Hardly. The issue is whether it rises out of the cesspool far enough to be called tolerable or understandable
Clearly everyone is a Notre Dame fan…. Granted the timing was bad but it was OPI as was their first touchdown but not called. It’s not like it was a phantom call or blown call like the face mask called on FSU early in the game, they committed a blatant foul, get over it. ND is a good team and may yet have something to say in the playoff. The bigger issue is ACC officiating which is clearly the worst in the country. I saw a lowlight of a call in the NC State game on a 2 point conversion called in-complete that was clearly a catch if I ever saw one. I hope an important play doesn’t come down to ACC officiating again this year!
James
To dismiss this as a mere matter of timing is deeply dishonest, as is characterizing it as a “blatant foul.” You ought to be embarrassed for trotting that sophistry out against compelling evidence of bias and corruption.
Offensive pass interference is seldom called under any circumstance. There was actually a “blatant” case of it earlier in the same game when Boyack got flagged for interfering with a defender about the intercept a wounded duck pass.
Nor is this a “heart-breaking loss.” It would have been heart-breaking had there been a sack, an incompletion, a tackle short of the goal line.
The premier football team in the Atlantic Coast Conference, the defending national champion, the number two team in the country at this time and the holder of the longest current win streak (FSU) lost at home to Notre Dame 34-31. That was changed by one man in the pay of the ACC. He and he alone saw, in circumstances that, to put it charitably, were ambiguous, a seldom-seen infraction that was missed by all five of his colleagues, including two who were closer to the play than he was. Never mind the clear-cut helmet off personal foul that he missed though it was right in front of him.
But do not underestimate the role played by the fear and anxiety of antagonizing 82,000 highly excited FSU fans late on a Saturday night if he permitted their beloved Seminoles to lose at home in the last minute of play with no. 26 helmet off and arms outstretched in a plea for a flag. The man knew his decision could not be appealed. He knew he would not have to deal with the visiting team: They would soon be headed home, and home was far away. He also knew he would have to live with the ACC that wrote his paycheck and the FSU team that is the crown jewel of the conference (not to mention the possibility of a fight to get out of the stadium in one piece that very night.)
What took place in Tallahassee last Saturday night is what we call “the fix” and corruption. Mark my words, it will be one of the most costly of “wins” ever for Florida State University. They will never be able to live it down, never able to wash the stink off it. Long after the thrill is gone — and I bet the thrill is already gone — the game will be the occasion of apologies and FSU fans looking down at their shoes in shame and embarrassment. FSU blew the coverage and got rewarded for it. An ACC official stole a win for the conference darling playing at home against a non-conference opponent from out of state. It seemed like a good thing at the time. It will never be better than it was on Saturday night, but it will be much, much worse. Day by day the taint will prevail. You’ll never hear the end of it.
Regards.
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I’m not sure what’s worse:
(1) Ignoring my comment below refuting any kind of conspiracy, a post which that is ON THIS SITE no less.
(2) Ignoring the fact Mr. Ramirez stated ACC officials are the worst in the country, a point which he stated was the “bigger issue” of his reply
(3) Ignoring a major fact in my post, you know, the one you are commenting on, that P.J. Williams, #26, wasn’t pleading for a flag, but yelling at his own teammates for blowing the coverage.
(4) Providing “evidence” that is circumstantial at best, including claiming that you know what was going on in the official’s head.
(5) That “Boyack” is apparently a player on the Irish.
I’m giving you a lot of leeway right now in your comments, but if you keep going down this path, I will start modding or deleting them.
One, yes, chief, Boyack is “a player on the Irish” — He caught the game winner against Stanford.
Two, do yourself a favor and watch the clip on WSBT, from a South Bend Tribune reporter behind the end line (probably next to Ryan).
Three, “circumstantial” evidence is frequently better by far than “direct” evidence. (Do you even know the difference between the two?)
Four, your writing lacks clarity, and your comprehension of my writing lacks understanding: I do not subscribe to the notion of a conspiracy involving the Michigan and Pitt games last year and the FSU game this year, nor to the notion of plot or scheme hatched by the crew of Saturday’s game. And I said so, and I write for people who move their lips when they read.
Five, if my judgment conflicts with yours over what is fact and what is important, I will resolve the conflict in favor of my judgment unless I am convinced of my error.
Six, I am a newcomer to this business of online back and forth, and your message invites an inference that you are first among equals and some sort of censor. I have no interest or intention in participating in that sort or rigged game. Watch the above-identified clip. I don’t need to hear another peep out of you, and I have nothing more to say.
(1) Hi, chief. Boyack is not on the roster. That would be Koyack.
(2) I did. Did you read the article above THAT I WROTE?! I don’t agree with the call.
(3) Yes, direct evidence is required to support the truth of a statement to assert something as fact. Circumstantial evidence only infers it.
(4) I would appreciate if you would refrain from ad hominem attacks and/or attacks on my writing abilities.
(5) Good to know this exercise was pointless since you have your mind made up.
(6) I’m not a censor. I run this site. I can get sued based on things that appear on my site. I don’t feel like getting sued. My request was a simple one to not go past the line you were toeing in regards to the official. That’s all.
While I’m sure ND won’t want this crew in any future games (and I have a feeling the ACC won’t either this season), I completely disagree with the conspiracy angle: http://www.herloyalsons.com/blog/2014/10/22/notre-dame-fans-acc-referee-conspiracy/
In my judgment, there is no connection (sinister or otherwise) between the Michigan game of 2013, the Pitt game of 2013, and the FSU game last Saturday night; nor did the six-man officiating crew last Saturday openly plot and scheme to throw the game in favor of FSU and designate Pat Ryan as the trigger man so to speak. Nor do I suspect that Mr. Ryan had a wager pending on the game. (But his being on the ACC payroll is highly relevant.)
My position as to what took place is expressed in terms of the continuum that my post mentioned and of locating Pat Ryan’s decision on that continuum.
Offensive pass interference is one of a handful of infractions in the rule book that is commended to the able and honest judgment and discretion of an individual official. Each official is actually a crew unto himself in cases of such infractions. The official who throws a flag for such an infraction in effect overrules the five officials who do not. And the power under examination here includes the power to change the outcome of the game (witness Saturday night. Notre Dame won 34-31, and one man (Pat Ryan) changed the score to FSU 31 ND 27)
That power to make winners of losers and vice versa is the genesis of the unwritten rule: When it doubt, let it go. The truly competent and honest official shows his respect for that awesome power — the power to make the winner the loser and vice versa — by practicing self restraint, by a sparing use of the power, by a commitment to resolving the close call in favor of a “no call,” and by asserting the power only in the clear-cut case. (And as rare as offensive pass interference is, there was a clear-cut case of it in that game: Boyack was correctly flagged for interfering with a defender about to make an interception of a wounded duck pass.)
No fair-minded person with a reasonable understanding of the facts and circumstances could conclude that Pat Ryan’s decision was the epitome of competent and principled officiating. So we are off the moral high ground and heading toward the nest of vipers. It is difficult to locate the decision in the middle of the spectrum, where a fellow who is long on competence or integrity but not both is doing his level best to make the correct call. The play on the field was too ambiguous to depart from the when-in-doubt-let-it-go rule. The correct call was no call.
Do not underestimate the fear and anxiety of antagonizing 82,000 Florida State fans who are all keyed up late on a Saturday night and in no mood to witness their beloved Seminoles get beat at home by Notre Dame when number 26 has his helmet off and his arms outstretched in a plea for a flag. Pat Ryan knew he could not be reversed and he knew he did not have to live with Notre Dame: They’d soon be on their way home, and their home was far away. He also knew he would have to live with the ACC that paid his salary and with the conference darling (FSU) (not to mention face the possibility of having to fight his way out of the stadium in the next minute or two.)
The play itself warranted a no call. Mr. Ryan does not pack the gear to make the call that the play warranted. He made the call that pleased his paymaster and spared him the rage of 82,000 FSU fans standing between him and the exits late on a Saturday night in the Florida panhandle.
Florida State will never be able to wash the stink off that victory. As the years pass, and long after the thrill is gone, the taint will remain and the game will occasion lots of apologies and FSU people looking down at their shoes in shame and embarrassment.
Regards
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Hello, again. Sir David as one would think you should be referred as.
I find NDTex’s opinions quite neutral and as these blogs can sometimes get a little out of control, a sort of mediator is actually refreshing. If you do not like the back and forth of this , I suggest you find another outlet for your opinions! While some of your theories have some validity, most are bias or flawed in some way. For instance, I was a varsity official for several years and it is more difficult that it appears. Also, as each official has a different area of responsibility, multiple flags for the same infraction is not common and even discouraged in some instances. A discussion, especially on critical plays, is always preferred. Five flags from all of the officials would never happen! So one flag is not a conspiracy or even an argument…