When the Notre Dame Band takes its first steps onto the artificial field of the future, it will do so without any returning members of the Irish Guard. Part of a series of changes designed by Band Director Dr. Ken Dye to return the group to its “historical traditions,” membership in the Irish Guard will now be a one- or two-year post, limited only to current band members or managers. Gone, too, will be a rigid height requirement and, if you take the word of now former-members, some of the Saturday traditions that made Notre Dame special. In my opinion, the drastic membership changes will destroy what the Irish Guard is and turn it into a ceremonial bauble, as critical, yet ultimately as useless, as the hat on a tuba-player’s head.
I reject the idea that there was any sincere concern that the Irish Guard lost its musical roots. While the official history tells us that the original Guard, formed in 1949, consisted of bag-pipers, by 1954, they abandoned musical performance altogether. Instead, they focused on people-moving, initially on moving Notre Dame students who blocked the way to the Field House and threatened to crush band-members in their exuberance to get a good seat. As recently as 2010, Assistant Band Director Larry Dwyer noted that the Irish Guard are instructed to move people out of the way of the band, “with care, but they’re also instructed to get it done.”
I also note that discipline problems have been dealt with in the past. Well-publicized episodes of bad behavior in 1987, 1992, and 2007 made the pages of Scholastic and national television on NBC and Sports Center. Still, the Guard carried on. In fact, in a Scholastic article appearing in 1998, then-director Dr. Luther Snavely admitted to knowing of the existence of initiation practices among the Guard, but that they were “a secret to the guys and the organization.”
While every member of the Irish Guard save its Captain was required to tryout for his (or her) job each season, the presence of veterans among the ranks gave the Irish Guard a uniformity, consistency, and institutional-knowledge that gave meaning to their traditions, and purpose to their steps. All elite units rely on these basics of esprit de corps and discipline, on the fact that they are, in fact, different from, or better than, the rest. Everyone knows what “green beret” implies. So, too, the Legionnaire’s kepi has an immediate impact to the viewer. To remove institutional memory from the Irish Guard will be to diminish the importance of its traditions and lore. It will be the first step in removing the traditions and the group altogether.
This may be Dr. Dye’s purpose. At $2,000 per kit, it’s expensive to suit up the ten Guardsmen and if they lose the height and appearance requirements, I don’t doubt that cost will soon be used to justify further watering-down, either by reducing the number of Guardsmen or by taking away uniform items. A designed life-span of one or two seasons is a terrible idea when applied to a unit whose official use has been to move people. Marching into a crush of people is scary the first time you do it, and removing those who’ve done it before is a bad idea, especially for the upcoming season, which will have no returning Guardsmen.
The Irish Guard means something to Notre Dame and it’s unfair to create a squad of square-jawed men (and women) whose job it is to be different and aggressive and then take away the characteristics that allowed them to do its job. Closing the Guard to non-members will ensure that Dr. Dye’s control over the group is unquestioned and unchallenged. Closing the Guard down, though, may be his ultimate goal.
- Finding Flaws in a Diamond: Clemson’s Rushing Offense - December 17, 2018
- Why Nobody Will Cotton to Notre Dame - December 3, 2018
- Irish Finish Regular Season Perfect 12-0 - November 26, 2018
ndtex
Removing all current Guardsmen is easily the thing that angers me the most about this. The Guard has always had some level of continuity to pass down traditions and that is now completely gone.
Perhaps if Dye had kept at least a handful of the current crop, this would be easier to swallow. But no, he completely gutted it and now there will be a clear line in 2014 of when the Guard became a shell of itself.
Irish Elvis
It makes me wonder whether the ultimatum was “here are the new changes — take ’em or leave ’em” and the existing IG vacated in solidarity.
Bandy1
This would make sense if one of the ultimatum decisions was cutting inspection, a tradition which guardsmen of all generations take pride in.
Bayou Irish
If you’re referring to the public inspection, I don’t get why that would be cut. There has to be more.
ndtex
The only logical reason to remove the inspection is that Dye knows the new Guardsmen are going to have to face IRATE IG alumni and they are probably trying to spare that confrontation.
Which of course leads to the obvious question: If this is going to obviously anger people, why is all of this suddenly so necessary?
I mean, I understand that people are upset about field turf even though I don’t agree, but at least you can give some stated reasons as to why. The “getting back to our roots” excuse is so laughable and if that’s the best reason, then that’s just sad.
Bandy1
As a former band member I would speculate that it would be very difficult for Dye to convince current band members to do Irish Guard. It would mean that they would have to leave there section and the bonds in those sections are very tight. There are gameday traditions that each section participates in that occur more or less at the same time as inspection (like trumpets in the dome). So if I had to guesspart of the logic behind cutting inspection was to allow new Irish Guard members to participate in their section traditions. I have no proof of this, but the logic is there. If this is the logic Dye used look for kilted trumpet players under the dome or a few of them carrying percussion instruments this fall.
ndtex
By why include things like, as Bayou said below, removing the inspection. Also, why require a need to have the membership be a one or two year temporary charge?
It just seems like a whole lot of unneeded “adjustments” and it looks like a damn power grab by Dye.
Jeremy
They’re getting rid of inspection for a very good reason: to protect the guys that will be in the guard. Inspection always involves former guard members coming back and harassing the current guard, and who knows what they would do to these new guys.
ndtex
I said the very same above; however, I believe if you don’t clean house on the entire Guard and try to keep most of the traditions in place, it would go over far better and the inspection would be fine.
FarwestND
Wouldn’t it just be easier to replace the band director?
Irish Elvis
Dye has done some great things with the band in his tenure, which is why I wonder along with Bandy1 below if there’s more going on here
Donald Dye
You have must have a lot of balls making this kind of statement.
MrMayhem75
You want balls? How about this. Next time the ND Band comes to Ohio, we’ll get “Dr.” Dye arrested. In Ohio, it is illegal to call yourself “doctor” unless you are an MD. After this, he deserves it.
Bandy1
Jesus Christ man show some respect. Or at least a little class.
Terber
Is that really a goal you would like to accomplish in life? To get someone arrested for something that they have evidently put in the years of work to get?
Bayou Irish
Mayhem: I’d like to see the statute or code on that one. If that’s the case, there are a few professors at tOSU who are flouting the law.
MrMayhem75
Section 4713. It dictates who can use the title “Dr.” . Technically, he cant, but it is rarely enforced.
Donald Dye
You must have a lot of insecurities to be making these hateful comments, especially when you don’t even have your facts straight. Until you know all the facts about the situation, which based on your comments you don’t have the capacity to, you should keep your mouth shut and show some dignity.
MrMayhem75
Wow. Nice. You’re going to stoop to insults. How about this then. IMHO, only a pompous ass who doesn’t practice medicine, would insist on people calling them “Doctor”. I happen to live with a Ph.D. Psychologist, employed at a hospital, who doesn’t let people call her doctor. When KEN cuts open someone and saves their life by administering life saving techniques, I will call him “doctor”, until then, KEN needs to quit wrecking our traditions.
Imho
lol, you’re a ho?
Donald Dye
Haha what do you think you have been doing this whole time? Is it just playful banter? No I think I’m actually reading threats.
ndtex
Dear everyone in this sub-thread, let’s get slightly more civil or I’m going to start modding the hell out of everyone.
I’m cool with banter back and forth, even angry banter, but this is starting to border on absurd, especially when we start heading into “lol you’re a ho” territory.
And for whatever it’s worth: I haven’t read anything as a threat, just hyperbole.
Bandy1
This is one of those instances where I have to believe there is more going on backstage than is released in the Observer. Decisions as big as this do not come from one band director. Say what you will about Dye, he is no idiot, and this move, without further reasoning than what we have seen, is idiotic.
Bayou Irish
Dye is a PhD and teaches and he’s clearly not an idiot. I think the IG’s Letter to the Editor was classy, but its juxtaposition with the Captain’s quotes in the Observer’s article is curious to me and suggests that there is a lot more going on beneath the surface. I’ve seen it written that this is a hard re-boot of the IG, something that ND does every so often, though I don’t think the entire IG has ever been replaced. That said, all the clap-trap about returning the IG to its musical roots and getting rid of the height requirement, making it an honorary and temporary position indicates that “they” are seeking fundamental change.
ndtex
Well something is definitely up because the person in charge of the IG (forget the name at the moment) was apparently not even aware the changes were made and/or approved.
MrMayhem75
You can bet that this summer, after graduation, there will be information released about this. I can almost promise that the IG members just dismissed are keeping quiet while still under the control of the university. Once that threat of discipline is lifted, the truth will come out. The height requirement being removed is bad enough, but removing the inspection so that the “fans” can have their picture taken with them? What a bunch of crap. Especially considering GamedayND ran a video last year praising the IG as being “Nowhere but ND”. There are politics at play here my friends…..
XIG
Would be IG returner here: we were lied to pretty much at every turn. There’s nothing that will “come out” of us because the university has given us no legitimate reason for our dismissal. Their main arguments depended on an “intimidating” air we brought with us in our interactions with the new IG candidates and our uneasiness to compromise away things like the height requirement and inspection.
MrMayhem75
So what was the “nail in the coffin” that made this sudden decision? or are you saying there wasn’t one and this was pretty much out of the blue?
GuardAlum
XIG– alum Guard here. My thoughts are with you guys…you really got royally screwed. I cannot imagine being a returning Guard who was told not to return. I wish current/alum Guard communication were better as several months ago perhaps some alums could’ve helped your cause. I know by the time I even found out about this it was basically already publicly announced.
TNT65
Has there been a full coup by the milketoast regime? This makes the Irish Guard on the same level as the band secretary and other minor officers, and lightens the intensity to the Purdue “Golden Girl”.
The more I see and hear, we will soon have all the gravitas and uniqeness as any band with a “flag drill”.
The is just too bad!
MrMayhem75
If ND gets a flag corp, forget it, our goose is cooked.
Irish Elvis
ND was male-only for 130 years. I’ll expect flag girls at ND right around the time I descend to my seat via personal jetpack.
ndtex
Hold on a second…if we are getting personal jetpacks, this changes everything.
MrMayhem75
Real jet packs? or just tuba players with fire extinguishers pretending? again.
D
They are not getting a flag corp Dr. Dye HATES those with a passion. He had to deal with them at another school and would have cut them if he didn’t get the job at ND
Todd
This is not only a slap on tradition, it is slap to all of the guardsmen and guardswomen who represent Notre Dame. Once again the jumbotron / fieldturf / video game / don’t keep score community makes their attempt on averaging Notre Dame. Tradition of excellence is not a bad word. Next up – not GPA’s, we don’t want to upset the little ones with keeping score
ndtex
I didn’t realize Dye was instrumental in getting field turf into the stadium. Nor did I know he wanted a jumbotron. Nor did I realize he was a gamer. Nor did I have any idea about his dislike of score keeping.
Thanks for your informative post.
Father Sorin
Nothing says “Get out the way!” like a 5’4″ guardsman. I dislike this mutilation of tradition intensely. But what truly saddens me deeply is that my University has become incapable of respecting the Christian value of honesty. Change is frequently necessary and often salutary. But change for the sake of change is destructive. If someone wants to destroy the Irish Guard, take a page from Robespierre’s book and do it in one fell swoop, not by a thousand cuts. And above all, don’t lie about it. It makes my ears ring and my heart heavy.
Natalie Mann
As a band member I can say that the old Irish Guard basically should have never showed up to practice. They were constantly screwing around and distracted band members during practice. They were only there to have fun, not to enhance the band in any way.
Donald Dye
At least someone has some sense.
MrMayhem75
Sounds like this is driven by band nerds that have an axe to grind against the IG. I can’t wait to see the new IG made of frumpy little 5′ 2″ piccolo players.
Anon
That’s the impression I’m getting. Seems like a lot on band members have this weird complex about the Guard.
T
I’m sorry but I cant stay quiet anymore especially with articles like this going around. Technology I fee is starting to be a downfall to human kind. There used to be a time when we would hear news such as this and would one react but then say “why?” Whether we agreed with it or not we would at least show some respect and not jump to conclusions. I have been with and apart of the band for a very long time and I am deeply sadden to see this tradition change, it is one of my favorites, yet changes HAD to be made. Yes you name years of incidents but for one don’t say what they were and I can tell you from first hand knowledge for those 3 publicized incidents there were many many more. Guard showing up late or hung over for practice or just not showing up at all, let alone actually practice or listen to what they were suppose to do. I’m not saying they were all like this but this “elite passing of the torch”, also passed A LOT of bad traditions. I remember many times being on a bowl trip or away games and the guard showing up late or not at all when we should have marched off a half hour ago, there were times when we left them behind. Don’t hide behind the equality men and women dance. Many of the writers that are responding to this situation are also the ones that bashed Dr. Dye for accepting women into the ranks of the Irish Guard because it “breaks tradition” it makes me sick to see people using that in their articles to gain support. Then using the guard protects the band argument is also voided. We are unique because we have “body guards” I’m sure the other 120 or so marching bands do just fine without 6’2″ men marching in front of them. Who’s to say these other band members will do a poor job? Are you saying a band member cannot do a good enough job? I mean saying things like that kinda go against the equality angle you are taking. Another thing is how does the one year in band differ from what we have now? They current guard are not able to try out till their Sophomore year, this will just help them get adjust to what is expected plus it gives them a full extra year to enjoy game day! Yes this is a sad adjustment and do I agree with all of them no but I will tell everyone this. There is MUCH more going on that what is being said, and changes were needed to be made. Much of this is self inflicted by current and prior guards members (inspections change). Maybe take a step back before crucifying someone, and don’t shoot the messenger, this decision came from much higher up that Dr. Dye.
MrMayhem75
Ok, so discipline the IG members, or replace them. But don’t cut the inspection, or the height requirement, or any of the other tradition that goes with it. Imagine if the football team had important members that were not holding up their end of the deal, and instead of replacing them with athletes that could do the job, BK just pulled a tambourine player with zero athletic skill that was 4’9″ tall and put him in. That is what “Dr. Dye” is doing. What a joke.
t
They were multiple times, not allowed to march, kicked off, you name it but nothing seemed to really motivate to shape up and this has been going on for years. Also inspection is actually for their saftey. There were many times where they were being harassed by fans, but mostly alumni guard. You know the oh we had this done to us so we have to one up that kinda deal. No that is not what Dr. Dye is doing it is what the Administration is doing. Also what makes the guard so special? What were they before they were the IG? Whats the difference between them sitting out a year completely and having to either be a manager (which is probably what they are going to do) or play an insturment. They have to be a sophomore to try out anyway. And yes they are doing away with the 6’2″ rule but that in no way means they are putting someone that is 4’2″ in unless I totally missed that in which case where did Dr. Dye say that? They are going to try and put the tallest members as guard.
Irish Elvis
So to review:
– technology is bad
– show some respect
– things had to change
– lots of things were going wrong, *trust me*
– other schools don’t have Irish Guard
– band members can do just fine on their own
I guess that’s fine, but Bayou’s point was that the official, stated reasons for overthrowing the current Guard makes no sense. You (or the Band, or the University) should state these valid reasons, as the official statement was quite vague and unpersuasive.
t
Well I’m guessing you believe everything you read on the internet from officials huh? Administration was the one who called for the guard to be changed. believe me if you want or not but you are wrong. The guard disrespecting directors and band members, being so hung over they would miss buses on bowl trips, or just miss march out many of these happened numerous times. And what you don’t think people who are just the same as the guard maybe just a tad shorter (they aren’t going to make really short people Irish guards). What makes the guard so special before they were the guard?
ndtex
“Don’t believe everything you read on the internet, but believe what I am saying on the internet.”
http://www.goodfellasmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/cool-story-bro.jpg
Bayou Irish
Hi T and thanks for taking the time to write so many words. I don’t think I crucified Dr. Dye – I rejected his stated reason. I avoided any sort of ad hominem attack or anything I thought unfair. So what are these incidents? I certainly didn’t even imply that the IG’s bad behavior was limited to three incidents — I carefully described them as “well-publicized.” WHICH IS WHY I WANT THE UNIVERSITY OR THE GUARD TO EXPLAIN WHAT HAPPENED AND WHY. In the credit where credit is due department, the IG’s Letter to the Editor last week was classy and stayed out of the fray. So, what happened?
t
The guard being televised on television being hung over, almost putting the flag upside down again after a night of drinking, countless times not showing up or being late to march outs both home, away, and at bowl games, the hazing, causing problems while on band trips. The list is too long to even specify each incident and each one I have listed here has happened multiple times and was not uncommon. And you are correct those were very publicized incidents but why not detail what they were? Dr. Dye did a very good job covering up many mishaps that have happened because of the guard or even any band members. This decision was not Dr. Dye’s decision it came down from Administration he had no choice. When I said crucify I meant stop blaming him so harshly, or at least take a step back. He had no say what so ever. And you should know by now that the university will try its absolute best to not portray itself in any kind of bad light which is why they had Dr. Dye come out with the news, and do you really think the Irish Guard will come out and say “hey we screwed up we did this this and this, while we regret it we don’t feel this is fair.” Hell no they are going to keep their mouths shut, or play the victim. Look they aren’t all bad but things got way too out of hand way too often for some kind of change not to have happened. As far as the inspection goes there again were way to many incidents where the public/inspectors took advantage of the opportunity and most of it was prior guard. So many of this was self inflicted and finally caught up with it. And before people say there should’ve been other disciplinary actions there were, one of the most severe was the guard not marching with the band at one point or another and that wasn’t enough to straighten things out.
t
And hey I will apologize for possibly some heated things I may have said but being extremely close to the situation it’s getting frustrating to see things going the wrong direction. I would love to say every single detail but unfortunately I cannot, I’m not allowed to. I would love it if the actual truth came out on why when where. But the closest I can give is what I said and what some of the previous band members have said.
ndtex
Let’s get one thing straight in a hurry: no one her at HLS ever bashed Dye for allowing women into the Guard. Period. Do not associate us with that nonsense.
t
Hey maybe HLS didn’t but the same kind of reaction seems to be spewing the exact same way as it did when there was a girl Irish guard.
t
And hey I will apologize for bring that up but as I said it seems all to similar and it seems to be coming from the same directions. This whole situation has gotten way out of hand, and being extremely close to the situation it’s getting very frustrating seeing the blame being pointed in the wrong direction.
ndtex
I don’t care how close you claim to be to this. I’m not going to let you slander our staff.
You are free to disagree with us, but stick to what is actually being discussed from the post or comments and don’t bring in BS that has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Jeremy
Everyone is assuming this was Dr. Dye’s idea– it actually came from administration, and if the president’s office tells you to do something, you do it. Something had to be done about the guard being drunk at practice every day and goofing off and not caring at all about the band. This might seem like an extreme way of fixing all these problems, but it’ll work out for the better.
Bayou Irish
What about the “look” of the IG? I’m fine with women in the Guard, that’s not what I’m driving at. But what about the uniformity? The “fear factor”? The “je ne sais quoi” of it all? What about love? Don’t you want someone to care about you?
Mathers
What is this crap about “being drunk at practice everyday” ? The guys showed up to practice after classes every day—if they couldn’t make it, they received excused-absences via band-directors. They balanced guard duties with full course loads, job searches, and other extra-curricular activities—just like any band student. Have some respect. Stop making them out to be drunk hooligans.
Jeremy
I’m a band member. I can guarantee you they showed up to practice more than once not particularly sober. They didn’t take it as seriously as they should have, and they didn’t really show the band much respect. I’m not trying to cause problems, just explaining why some change was definitely needed.
ndtex
I don’t think anyone here has an issue with disciplining the Guard or even removing some of the more troublesome members if that’s the case.
I think the bigger issue is that it looks more like a total takeover plus trying to re-shape the Guard into something it isn’t.
t
The reason for the “reboot” is because troublesome guard have been removed in the past but for some reason things keep popping up because of these “traditions” being passed down. So after too many incidents and years of this administrations said they had enough and there had to be a reboot.
Bayou Irish
Jeremy: thanks for the first-hand knowledge, but, and this is me over a thousand miles away, it sounds like a dramatic move, does it not, to replace the entire corps of the Guard? Plus, I think what happened is more than “some change,” no? Can you explain further?
Mathers
I’m a soon-to-graduate Guardsman. Last year’s Guard captain won senior band-member of the year award. This year, most (if not all) of the guard received shamrocks for practice attendance. Whatever vendetta Ken Dye or student affairs felt they had to settle had nothing to do with practice.
ndtex
Sounds like a terrible group of people!
In all seriousness, beyond a “us vs them”, I am still just confused as to what is really going on.
Anon
There seems to be some sort of weird band insecurity going on.
ndtex
I think that’s pushing it. I have no doubt that there is a definite level of truth to some of what’s been said by current/former band members here; however, I do not think it is at the level suggested.
This appears to be something that has built over a long time and something, something that hasn’t been publicly reported, happened that caused the radical shift.
ndtex
Then why not say that in the Observer article?
That’s the other thing that has us angry. There’s been far more speculation to this story than fact. We are reacting to what is given to us. We’d be more than happy to ease off of Dye’s quotes if the administration spoke out.
As of now, all we have is that the Office of Student Affairs was “involved” which means very little.
t
Do you really think the university wants that bad press? Look at the uproar it has brought just at the band level. All the alumni possibly pulling support (since there are only like 2 major contributors to the band which by the way they have to FIGHT to give it to the band because the rest of the university wants to take it away), plus with the changes they are make now (turf) they don’t want any more. And as for the Guard yes some of them are respectful but do you think they are going to come out and say we did this this and this….no. Dr. Dye is taking the dive for this just as Jeremy is saying and he’s getting way to much crap for it than he deserves.
ndtex
If ND thinks that trying to yank a tradition away with a smokescreen is a good idea, then ND just dropped the ball in a huge way. And I would like to think they are smarter than that.
What’s going to happen when the truth eventually comes out? You think that there won’t be an even worse backlash? Come on now.
Comparing this to turf is laughable. That was a mixed reaction that has just as much support as dissent.
I have yet to see any positive reactions to this. And past/present band members saying “something had to be done” isn’t exactly evoking a positive reaction, either.
If Dye really is taking a dive, that is beyond dumb on his part; however, he’s owning the decision, so we will go based on that fact, not theories and hearsay.
Irish Elvis
Bad press is sometimes confused with controversy, but they’re not the same. The two scenarios you mentioned (turf and Guard) are dissimilar in many ways.
With turf, there was documented evidence & conversation that the current surface was sub-par, criteria for success were presented, various solutions were considered (artificial/natural), and a final decision was announced.
Contrast this to the singular IG announcement: no prior warning was mentioned, no concrete evidence was provided, no alternate solutions were presented — just The Decision. And we’re left to infer (as you claim) whether Dye reached this decision unilaterally or whether “higher ups” had influence.
The vocal minority will be upset with any controversial decision, but demonstrating a rational thought process will ensure productive conversation.
irishpunt
The Guards need to establish as an independent group and not be subject to the Band or its fearless leader. They are a tremendous and very proud tradition and need to be continued. The height requirement needs to be maintained as the Guard as always been seen as bad asses…..they did not have to push people aside because when you heard “here come the Irish” you knew to clear the way. Who is going to proudly march the American Flag over before the game?? Wow they wear skirts, please do not make them wear panties.
Tex Reese
Former band member here (1994) While I agree with the comments about the guard in non-game situations (useless), they were valuable on game day and their imposing height and size definitely moooooved the riff-raff out of the way. In review of the future changes to the guard? To paraphrase another’s comments: Nothing says useless like a 5’4″ guardsman on gameday.