Okay, not really, but given that a strong Big East is important to ND’s continued independence, it looks like Jack Swarbrick now has a great opportunity to help ensure that ND remains Conference-free, at least for the near future.
The Big East has finally manned up and decided to actually try to survive, rather than just standing around and looking surprised as other conferences steal all of their teams.
On a teleconference earlier today, our Presidents and Chancellors authorized the BIG EAST Conference to engage in formal discussions with additional institutions and are considering moving to a model that includes 12 football playing schools.
While going from 6 to 12 seems like a long-shot, it’s great to see the BE finally stepping into the game and getting active about expansion. The conference has few major pillars of strength at this point: 1) The automatic BCS Bid and 2) The relationship with Notre Dame. They need to use both to attract some quality additions, and to keep teams like UCONN and WVU in the fold. Given how important a strong Big East is to ND, Jack should be all over #2, offering up matchups (yes, even home and homes) to those teams to bring them into/keep them in the BE.
The short list for expansion includes teams like Army, Navy, and Air Force, along with ECU, UCF, Memphis, Temple and Villanova.
Yes, yes, I know, nobody wants a schedule filled with Big East teams. But hear me out here: ND’s football independence is more important than any one schedule. It’s more important than any group of 5 schedules. If ND needs to play some games against teams that are ho-hum (which should lead to some W’s by the way) this is a very, very small price to pay to keep that independence. Heck, we give the Big Tweleven a handful of games each year and what does that conference give us other than grief? If the BE is able to help us retain Independence by remaining a solid home for Hoops and Olympic sports, let’s toss them a bone.
Of course there’s no way that Jack can offer series to every single one of those teams, but we wouldn’t really have to. We already have Navy on the schedule in perpetuity, and Army and Air Force are on there enough already that it’s not a huge motivator for them. ‘Nova is already in the conference so there’s not much need there, and Temple is already on the ND schedule. That means that ND could look into another series with UCONN, a matchup with WVU, and games with new members ECU, UCF and Memphis. Scheduling those last 5 a few times in the coming years isn’t a huge ask, especially if it helps solidify the BE. Plus, a few games against teams that aren’t Oklahoma, Texas, USC, Michigan, MSU, etc might be nice.
Playing Notre Dame still brings a lot to the table for newer programs, including exposure, money and hype. Jack should use this to our advantage, and get these teams on the schedule to help strengthen the Big East, and in doing so save ND from the nightmare that is Conference Membership.
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Joe Magarac
This is crazy. There is no evidence – none – that the Big East’s implosion as a football conference would cause ND to lose its football independence. There are 8 non-football schools in the Big East, and ND could continue to play them in other sports even if the remaining football schools left.
Nor is there any evidence that potential Big East members consider the Big East’s relationship with ND a “major pillar of strength.” That’s a very ND-centered way of looking at the world.
Finally, ND’s schedule is pretty well set through 2016. Are you seriously suggesting that a football school that is otherwise on the fence about whether or not to join the Big East in 2012 would be swayed by the prospect of maybe getting to play Notre Dame in 2017?
Pat
Joe, I agree with your last two points. On the first point though, the problem isn’t so much football as to what do do with all the other sports.
Matt Q. (DMQ)
You have to remember that the other sports, aside from basketball, are very slightly dependent on the big east.
The Biscuit
How is this? Without the BE, who do those other sports play? What can they win?
Joe Magarac
The problem isn’t so much football as to what do do with all the other sports.
Right. And the solution – assuming for the moment that the 6 remaining Big East football schools leave – is to let ND’s other sports teams continue to belong to a conference that would consist of the 8 current Big East schools that don’t play football. Call it the “Big Catholic” conference. Those 8 schools will all need a home for their sports if the Big East football teams abandon ship, and there is every reason to think that they would continue as a conference going forward.
The Biscuit
‘every reason’? Really? What reason? What evidence? Football is the glue that holds every conference together. It’s where all the money comes from.
That also marginalizes all of our other sports and reduces their exposure/competition level. That may sound great to you, but talk to ND Women’s Soccer about this option and you may get a different opinion.
Joe Magarac
Football is NOT where all the money comes from. For established football powers, it is. But as I note below, last year 52 of the 120 football programs lost money as football programs. Schools that exist without football now won’t need football to survive going forward.
The Biscuit
Rebuttal:
1) There is not definitive evidence (though there never is), but there is certainly some evidence. The fact that JS repeatedly speaks to the need for a strong BE, and his strong words about Pitt/Cuse bailing, gives some indication that BE implosion would force our hand. And there is no one on the ND side with better access and information than Jack. So yeah, I’d say there is some indication. And BTW, there is little/no evidence that the non-FB schools in the BE would stick together as a non-FB conference should the FB teams leave. It’s unlikely that the finances would work, and those teams with FB aspirations could leave to join larger conferences at some point. There’s certainly more evidence for the former than the latter.
2) Yes, it’s an ND-centric way of thinking about it. And it doesn’t matter if the BE team members consider the relationship a pillar of strength – it is. Besides the BCS bid, what else would you point to? Strength in hoops? Hurt by the departure of Pitt/Cuse. Still there, but that’s about it. This is an ND blog and I approach it from an ND perspective – what can WE do to help protect Independence. It’s ND-centric because HLS is ND-centric.
3) Yes. It wouldn’t be ‘maybe’ and that’s real dollars and real exposure. If the BE retains its BCS bid, adds a few programs to solidify FB, and a team was guaranteed a Home-and-Home with ND for X years, it would be a meaningful piece of the puzzle. Not THE ONLY piece, but meaningful. And all deals aren’t forever – ND could decide to scratch Pitt given their defection and slot in a ‘new BE’ team to get someone on the schedule sooner. There are always options.
Joe Magarac
There is little/no evidence that the non-FB schools in the BE would stick together as a non-FB conference should the FB teams leave. It’s unlikely that the finances would work, and those teams with FB aspirations could leave to join larger conferences at some point.
There is no “evidence” either way. But if the Big East’s football members leave, the non-football members will have to do something. The most obvious and easiest something is to continue on as a non-football conference. I think you have to assume that this is what would happen.
The suggestion that the non-football members of the Big East have “football aspirations” makes no sense to me at all. Georgetown and Providence and Loyola and all the rest mounting football squads? Really?
It’s worth remembering that a sizable chunk of college football programs (52 of 120 last year) lose money on their own – i.e., not only do they fail to provide the athletic department with a surplus, they require extra funding from the athletic department to cover their expenses. Starting a football program from scratch means throwing money at it for at least a decade and hoping that maybe someday it will be one of the roughly 55% of programs that finishes each year in the black. Unless you have evidence to suggest that non-FB Big East schools like Georgetown are serious about making that kind of commitment, you must assume that the non-FB schools will stay that way and will need a home should the FB schools leave.
The Biscuit
Villanova plays FCS football and would like to go FBS, there’s one. So now you’re down to 7.
And the $ point stands, especially as $’s for conference TV deals get bigger and bigger, which allows more and more teams to be on the positive side.
And the competition point stands – you think our Olympic sports want to be in a tiny 7-team conference with no national recognition? Maybe that’s the only option should the BE implode, and MAYBE that works. But keeping a strong BE with Football included is clearly superior.
Pat
Biscuit, money is still the big hurdle. Naturally a few smaller market or up-and-coming schools might be able to be lured into the Big East, but the big guys are going to chase what Notre Dame alone can’t give them: $$$. For UConn, say, a token home-and-home with Notre Dame isn’t going to compete with the TV revenue from joining the ACC. This new round of conference expansion is really starting to put a squeeze, especially for all the sports at ND that aren’t football.
The Biscuit
Agree. But it doesnt mean that ND can’t do whatever possible to hold it together. It may not be enough, but better than not bringing anything to the table
Matt Q. (DMQ)
I disagree with almost everything in this post. The only words I don’t disagree with are trivial ones like “the” and “is.” Nice work, compelling me to post a counter.
The Biscuit
Look fwd to it. Just be sure to argue the actual points here. That’s your challenge.
kyndfan
The local sports talk in Louisville is saying Houston and possibly Boise st. could also be targeted. There is also talk of adding football only, so the bball and other sports don’t end up with a gazillion teams.
ND’s association brings money, tv, and legitamacy to the league, but does not make or break the deal. Most BE games are shown on espnu or espn2. Getting on NBC is very appealing for most of these programs.
trey
I think the BE needs to start targeting some of the schools that have some more SUSTAINED success rather than the fly-by-night teams such as Boise/Louisville. I think the XII is in for a bad surprise when TCU comes back down to earth and the PAC will be the same with Utah crashing.
NDtex
With TCU being so local, I can tell you that TCU won’t be making a downfall. The move to the Big XII created far more buzz than the Big East announcement ever did.
The rivalries and games between the Texas and Oklahoma schools are talked about like crazy here and is a huge source of pride. Texas has already been losing recruits to TCU and that will continue.
New stadium, new local rivalries…that’s tons of hype that will translate.
trey
The Rangers are getting great attendance the last two years too, but I guarantee you the first year they miss teh playoffs, they’ll be back to averaging 20K/gm as opposed to the 35 or so they got this year.
Im obviously not as in the weeds as you are with the Dallas area sporting scene(I only went to college there for three years) but I do know that fans in that area do NOT support teams that dont win. There are too many other places to go in that city where teams ARE winning that they can spend their time and money. Remember when the Stars had packed houses? That was part of the reason the AA center got built.
I sincerely hope Im wrong on this, because I really do like TCU. Im just saying at the first sign of trouble with on-field success, they’ll be back to where they were with C-USA. Why did they not get invited to the BXII along with the rest of the SWC schools? They have about a million more people in FTW than freaking Waco and BAYLOR got an invite.
NDtex
First off, Texas is football country. The Cowboys blow yet they always sell out. SMU is awful, yet they still fill their new stadium on a regular basis.
As far as the Rangers and Stars, you also have to take into consideration the bad ownership situations that used to surround them (and still are with the Stars). That creates more apathy than losing. The Mavs started to sell out before they were a contender thanks to Cuban.
Also, you should note the Stars set a sellout streak (think it was 180+ or something) in their season *after* they won the cup and maintained it for quite a while after (went to 238). I believe they also hosted a game recently while the Rangers were playing ALCS game 2, that doesn’t help.
Baseball attendance has always been the lowest and that’s due to a boatload of reasons ranging from the brutal summers to the awful location of the stadium (it’s 30+ minutes from *both* Dallas and Ft Worth).
Despite that, Rangers attendance has been on a steady increase since 2009, before they even sniffed a single playoff win.
NDtex
I’m pretty sure I would rather join the ACC or Big Ten as opposed to this scenario.
Dangling the home and home series to potential Big East teams locks us in to awful games that no one cares to see (and I’d argue some of the teams you list may not care about a ND matchup). So we are left with a schedule that we always blasted Kevin White for, making us a pseudo football member of the Big East, which will be a joke of a football conference and could possibly lose their BCS bowl bid when the contract is renegotiated.
If that happens, kiss the remaining quality teams goodbye. ND needs to find a position of strength for their other sports. At this point, that means there needs to be a plan B that includes zero Big East association.
kyndfan
You don’t think remaining as a non fb member would stil benefit ND? This gives the other sports a place to compete while retaining fb independence. No other current bcs conference is willing to do this. If the BE loses their bcs bid, how would that effect ND? Our SOS will remain one of the best. I see it as a good relationship for ND.
NDtex
If the Big East loses their BCS bid, what motivation does any other “big name” left have to not jump ship to another conference? I’m sure the ACC would welcome UCONN and Louisville with open arms to help form a basketball super-power.
It’s a domino affect. Football rules all and other sports will sacrifice, leaving ND’s other sports with nowhere to go.
kyndfan
The only thing the BE is good for, as far as ND is concerned, is the non fb affiliation. I believe there are currently 8 non fb schools. Keeping that together should be ND’s priority so there is a place for non fb to compete. If some type of fb conference remains, good. If not, oh well.
The Biscuit
I don’t think it’s viable. If football goes, I think the while thing falls apart. FB is where the money is, even BE hoops won’t be enOugh to sustain the other programs.
The Biscuit
Every schedule has some less than big name games on it, including a bunch that JS has put in there. Not every game can be against a big name or a Top program. Whether its USF or ECU, what’s the difference?
And any/all deals could be contingent on the conference remaining viable/with BCS bid.
The fact that you put scheduling any given game above independence at all shows that we are lightyears away on this issue. Independence for me trumps any given schedule so long as we aren’t relegated to a schedule that marginalizes us.
NDtex
It isn’t just the scheduling alone that I have a problem with. It’s putting our focus into helping a potentially dying conference.
I don’t see any kind of Big East membership being the only thing that can keep our independence alive. The BCS contract has always been able to do that for us. I’d be more worried about losing that than the Big East.
The Biscuit
100% agree on BCS>BE, but tell me: what’s the alternative? If the BE implodes and literally no longer exists in any form, how does ND remain independent?
Even if you come up with an answer, it’s risky. Much riskier than trying to keep the BE alive, especially when the ‘cost’ is almost none.
trey
Whats the harm in playing as a mid-major? Honestly, I dont see the big difference for NON football schools. You still have the chance to compete and make playoffs and outside of M/WBB, there is no TV contracts to really worry about. Join the A10, Southland, whatever.
TXIrish2
Hasn’t the Big 12 already said they would take Notre Dame as a non-football member? Somebody would, that’s for sure.
I think the reason to keep the Big East together is because if it implodes then a raid would begin on the Big 12 as well, presumably, and Jack has said that in the case of super-conferences, the post-season would probably be revamped, and Notre Dame might be forced to join a conference for football to ensure they have a shot at the national championship.
Titus
I don’t see what’s particularly wrong (or revolutionary) about what’s said here, with one exception: this list of schools is terrible. Memphis? Are you out of your cotton-picking mind? Memphis might be the most inept FBS team in the nation: the Memphis sports press recognizes it, the C-USA bottom feeders who routinely thump them recognize it, and the school’s administration and Tennessee Board of Regents could not care less.
I understand that the Big East may need to remain a viable football conference in order to survive in other sports. But if it wants to expand, it will need to find schools that can actually play FBS football.
The Biscuit
I agree, which is why I didn’t put them in my list of hypothetical games
Titus
Well, that’s fair. But I don’t know that ECU and UCF are really much better from ND’s perspective. The problem is unless we start picking off BXII teams, there aren’t a whole lot of good options to choose from. I’d say that SMU, Southern Miss, and Houston are about the only schools left in a non-AQ conference that would fit into this model.
PJM79
The Big East is a lousy football conference. The fewer games we play against these teams, the better.
OderName
ND’s two major concerns for conference affiliation must be football post-season access and having a decent home for other sports. If the super-conferences align and have their own post-season bowls/tournament quick locks out ND, we have to join a conference (ACC is the best option by far).
If the Big East disintegrates and the other 7 non-football schools form a Catholic schools conference, we’ll have to consider that or joining another conference. So what’s worse – independent football and small-major basketball/olympics with GTown, SJU, Prov, Marq, Vill, DePaul, SHU – or ACC in everything? Or do you now see some value in trying to throw some bones to the BE and maintain what’s left there?
I dunno the answer, but those are the options right now.
The Biscuit
We may not have to join a conference if the BE is one of those Supers.
Vairish84
Even if the BE survives as a football conference, there is no guarantee they retain their automatic bid. Essentially, the reformulated BE would have 1 Top 25 team in it (WVU). It only has one team that travels in a meaningful way to bowl games (WVU). I agree with the approach of offering games to the BE to keep it together. We were already doing that. THe problem is we do not need to offer the new schools, they want a move up. We need to keep WVU in particular but also Louisville, Rutgers and U. Conn happy. They are the most desireable teams to retain the automatic bid.
If we have to replace Purdue or MSU with WVU every year, so be it. If we have to rotate the others important ones on the schedule, so be it.
The only teams that should have permanent homes in these transitional times are UM, USC and Navy. Everybody else is up for grabs.
As for the other sports, the Papal Conference (BE minus the football schools) would be a poor home for EVERY OTHER sport with the exception of Mens basketball.
The Biscuit
Agree all around.
Joe Magarac
Strangely, so do I.
The Biscuit
So you called my post ‘crazy’ and then you agreed with: “I agree with the approach of offering games to the BE to keep it together”.
So which is it? Am I crazy or do you agree with me?
Joe Magarac
Can’t it be both? Can’t I agree with a crazy person?
Whether I can or not, I agree with offering games to the current Big East football teams. We do this already and I see no reason to stop. I do object to offering games to potential Big East football teams, as I don’t think it will affect their decision to join but will affect (negatively) our schedule.
For the record, what I thought was crazy was your claim that if the 6 remaining Big East football schools leave, the remaining Big East teams will dissolve the conference, leaving no place for ND’s other sports to play and thus forcing ND to reconsider its independence. I just don’t think that will happen. But every time I write it, I get enough thumbs down to make my comment disappear, so maybe I need to reconsider.
Patrick
I didn’t read all of the above comments, but I’m a sophomore at UCF and they are drulling at the possibility of being in the Big East. All they care about is being in an AQ conference, and it seems like that’s pretty much how every CUSA team feels. So giving the invitation I believe UCF or any other CUSA team would join in a heart beat. With that said the Big East will more than ever deserve the nickname “The Big Easy”.
trey
Question…why is no one trying to poach Penn State from the Integer?
Joe Magarac
I’ve seen discussion of the ACC trying to poach PSU. The problem is that the ACC has 14 members now and would rather go to 16 than 15 (odd numbers make scheduling tricky). The ACC could take PSU and UCONN and get to 16, but they’d rather take ND and either PSU or UCONN … and they are waiting to see if/when ND will be interested.