As the entire Notre Dame fanbase knows by now, Michael Floyd was reinstated with the Notre Dame football team today. And depending on the lens through which you view this news, that may or may not be a good thing. If, like some – mostly Notre Dame fans – you choose to see this as the culmination of a process (a very real process, from what we’ve heard) that may have helped Floyd mature and improve upon his decision making, it’s a relatively good bit of news. And that’s valid, but it would also be valid to take a look at the news through a slightly wider scope, consider what this news means to the program as a whole, and perhaps see that in giving Floyd the chance to play a full schedule in his final season at Notre Dame, the football program and the institution of Notre Dame suffer a lost opportunity for years to come.
Floyd’s career shouldn’t be annihilated over the mistakes he’s made, but there’s one thing about his latest and biggest mistake that’s undeniable: drunk driving is unmitigated stupidity. And unmitigated stupidity doesn’t just deserve a response from society of “teaching moments,” and intangible life lessons via the ceremonial suspension from spring practice or the revocation of a captain’s badge. Unmitigated stupidity deserves tangible, difficult lessons; Lessons like suffering a shortened final season while seeking to impress NFL scouts.
This reasoning isn’t simply based on the ramifications that such a suspension would have placed upon Floyd’s life. This reasoning is based on the messaging that is or is not being sent to the entire Notre Dame football program and perhaps young people across the country. Today, the Irish program sent a pretty simple and disappointing message: “Drunk driving might get you and the Irish a ton of bad press, but time it right, and you might get out of missing a single game. Heck, you might even get out of some practice in the process.”
Now some will quibble with the assertion that getting out of spring ball is anything but a big punishment for Floyd. After all, they’ll argue, missing spring ball could jeopardize his starting position! But everyone, in an honest moment, has to admit that the chance of Floyd losing his starting spot to anyone on today’s roster is slim.
And so the only real signal remains for those who’d receive it: Drink and drive and time it right, and you might get some lost practice and bad press, but you probably wont miss any game-time. You probably wont have your chance to leave an impression with award voters, NFL scouts, and TV analysts limited.
And that’s an opportunity lost. We’ve argued with countless naysayers that the clear shift in disciplinary policies at Notre Dame over the last decade is more in keeping with the principle of “in loco parentis” than before, but frankly any good parent would make sure that any child of theirs who was stupid enough to drive drunk and lucky enough to do it without harm to themselves or others would suffer consequences that provided indelible shifts in their future – consquences that would make them, and anyone near them, think real hard about ever doing something so stupid again.
Update: The growing number of comments on this article seem to indicate I did a poor job expressing my viewpoint, so let me try to state it more simply and succintly: I think Floyd probably learned something from this process. But I believe those learnings are personal, as he was intimately involved with that process. I’m not confident that the learnings are highly available or renonant to his teammates or other young people, and I believe a loss of gametime for Floyd would have resonated more strongly with those 3rd parties.
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borromini
Not going to even try to dissect this one…have already read too many of the pros/cons all over the Internet on what Kelly’s process means to the team, the University and its alumni.
I just want the season to start.
Craig
It’s always been the case that timing is everything. Did Will Yeatman miss any football games for his DUI? No. He only got re-suspended when he was caught violating his probation (and whatever you might think of the circumstances under which he was caught, I still submit he was abysmally stupid to have had even one beer on a probation that had no drinking at all as a condition).
All of that said, I think that this is one instance where ND’s historical practice is actually a little more lenient than it should be. I think it’s very reasonable to argue that Floyd should have had to sit out for at least one game.
The Biscuit
I would have liked to see 1 game for this same reason. Just to add to the gravity of the message. But, as I wrote below, I’m ready to move on past this story. It’s been 4 months of it, and I’m over it. Floyd should apologize for that too.
Michael Floyd
Dear Biscuit…I am sorry for the 4 months of you having to defend or not defend me…again, any inconvenience this has caused I do apologize…#3
The Biscuit
Heh.
Mike
“We’ve argued with countless naysayers that the clear shift in disciplinary policies at Notre Dame over the last decade is more in keeping with the principle of “in loco parentis†than before, but frankly any good parent would make sure that any child of theirs who was stupid enough to drive drunk and lucky enough to do it without harm to themselves or others would suffer consequences that provided indelible shifts in their future – consquences that would make them, and anyone near them, think real hard about ever doing something so stupid again.”
I’m a huge Irish fan, and my parents were strict disciplinarians, but even they wouldn’t argue that making a stupid decision when you were 21 was grounds for potentially destroying your future. Mike Floyd made a huge mistake. No one is denying that. But this post seems to be arguing that for making a stupid mistake (a mistake that, I would guess, a whole lot of other ND undergrads have made) he deserves to be punished for the next half decade at bare minimum. I’m sorry, but that’s ridiculous. He should be punished, no doubt, but the idea that he should suffer punishment far above and beyond what other people his age suffer for the same crime is uncalled for.
The Biscuit
I dont think he was suggesting that he miss the entire season and thus have no shot at an NFL career.
The Biscuit
“Punished for the next half decade”. DMQ said explicitly that his career should NOT be ruined.
TLNDMA
I think what any parent would say is ” Let’s fix this.Let’s make sure it doesn’t happen again.” To achieve this,some would punish, others would counsel.
I think what most coaches and football programs would would do is punish or at least make it seem they did.
Domer , I undestand your point. I just don’t feel you can assert that ND made a mistake here. Nor would I, if they had suspended him for two games. What you can say is, you would have handled it differently.
I would argue though, that no player has marked on his calendar, the best time of year to get in trouble. I doubt any feel Mike got “off”.
Joey
I understand and respect the position, but I really am unsure of how missing a game against USF would teach Floyd a lesson moreso than he may have already learned. It is hard to speculate being on the outside what the exact work Floyd had to do get back in the good graces of the coaching staff, teammates, and administrators and only he truly knows how remorseful he is about the whole situation. Having said that, I am not sure him sitting against USF adds to his punishment other than saying, “See, we aren’t like everyone else.”
The fact that Floyd has to live with the fact that he made a really stupid decision that could have cost himself millions, and have the public scorn over it seems more apt of a punishment than for one game in early September.
I do appreciate the stance though and understand the thought process but to me, I think the approach of all games or no games was the right one to take because at the end of the day, suspending Floyd for an entire season would cost himself literally millions of dollars and if that is not incentive enough to stay away from being an idiot, well, there is not much anyone can do for him.
Anon
This is a really tough issue for me to be objective on. Several months prior to Floyd’s arrest, I was arrested for DUI so I have seen the whole process Michael is going through first-hand.
In my experience meeting people in the courtroom, in my counseling, and at my community service, people who are arrested for drunk driving fall into 3 categories post-arrest:
1. Shame/mortification followed by a need to make it right
2. Defiance – “the man is out to get me” followed by a return to previous behaviors. Basically, the “haterz” reaction.
3. Alcoholics, who are so addicted to alcohol that it doesn’t matter what they actually think, they won’t be able to quit until they get serious help.
From what everyone is saying, Michael falls into category 1. That doesn’t mean that is necessarily the way it is, but it’s all the information any of us really have to go on. If that is the case, what does it serve to shame him even further by making him sit out a game or two?
If he’s going to make it right prior to knowing whether he’s losing games or not, the actual losing of games is irrelevant to him.
One thing it will NOT do is be some kind of deterrant, for Michael or his present or future teammates. Nobody makes a plan to go get a DUI – it’s one of those things that is an unintended result of poorly thought out actions. That doesn’t mean it’s a mistake… a mistake is forgetting your license. A DUI is a result of bad choices: I CHOSE to not eat enough for dinner that night. I CHOSE to drive to the bar that night, knowing it was far away from home and I had no DD. I CHOSE to order a very stiff drink, and keep on ordering them, even though I had no safe way home. I CHOSE to not ask my friends if I could crash there while I was still relatively sober. As a result of those choices I tried to drive home, got arrested, and am still dealing with the consequences. At no point in any of that string of bad choices did I think “well fuck it, I’ll just drive drunk tonight” just like nobody on the football team will EVER think “wow I better stop now because I’ll get suspended for a game if I drive drunk.”
If you guys found out that one of your fellow bloggers got arrested for DUI, would you suspend his posting privileges for an in-season week of blogging? If you found out that a coworker was arrested for DUI, would you him to be suspended for a month? Would either of those consequences have the desired result of getting him to address his/her problem, or would it just be “piling on” when coupled with his legal and personal issues?
Also, can we stop referring to this as a “third offense”? His previous 2 “offenses” were MIPs. No matter what you actually think about it, underage drinking is a way of life at ND and I refuse to label him with a “repeat offender” tag because the Indiana morality police raided a party he was at. It could just as easily happened to any of those of us who went to ND. If anything, he’s shown some poor judgement in not realizing when a party was getting out of hand so he and his friends could get out before the cops got there.
77 grad
At least there is your reasonable voice in this discussion. Author of the article appears to come from the perspective that Floyd suffered no consequence. It appears to me that ND and Coach Kelly did not use a “cookie cutter” approach to discipline but a more non-emotional, detailed and apparently effective approach. The proof will be in the behavior following.
BSteg
thank you for having a reasonable counter to the author. I couldn’t agree with you more.
Anon
I agree wholeheartedly with Anon. I, too, made a bad decision many years ago and was arrested for DUI. I definitely fell into Category 1 and went through my counseling and suspension of driver’s license and was mortified to tell my parents. I also believe that MANY individuals have been in the same situation as Michael – the only difference – he was caught. I fail to see how his getting caught is different from the thousands of people that drive while under the influence every weekend. But the fact is, Michael went through the process – just like I did many years ago. Hopefully, he learns from it – like I believe I did. Oddly enough – those that are caught typically end up being more careful than the many that have not been caught, yet still get behind the wheel even after one or two beers. It’s actually a pretty random crap shoot as to how many people are on the road on any given night. Finally – I, too, and SICK of the 3rd offense crap. It’s his first DUI – as the author points out- the other two were minor in possession…and for those that attended ND…feel free to cast the first stone.
Jim
Did you even read what Kelly said? At the end of the day, he’s either a changed person, or he is not. If he is, a suspension for any games is pointless. If he isn’t, a one or two game suspension would not keep him from making bad choices again. Do you really think that Michale Floyd will be sitting in a bar, or at a party, six games in to the season, and what is going to keep him from drinking is the one game suspension earlier in the season? Really? I guess the question is, what is Kelly’s job as coach, is it to punish or to educate? Ask most great coaches, and they will say they see themselves as teachers first. If Kelly, who knows Michael Floyd far better than you EVER will, thinks he has learned his lesson, how on earth can you say otherwise?
Matt Quirion
I think you missed my point that the bigger issue is the message sent to other players/young people. I actually think Floyd may have learned a lesson. I’m not so sure an effective lesson was learned by others.
Jim
So you think that other players are going to drink or not drink based on what happened to Michael Floyd? By that reasoning, Michael Floyd should have seen what happened to Will Yeatman, and never touched the stuff. It just doesn’t work that way.
Trey
Agree 100%. People get DUI all the time. If mq’s logic were true, no one would ever drive drunk because they know the conseq. Sorry mate, i strongly disagree with you. Mike did EVERYTHING he was told he must do, but that’s still not good enough?
Jack
I would argue that it is close to a categorical imperative that one “not hurt or harm others more than is absolutely deserved and required.” If we think that Michael has learned his lesson, then we cannot simply USE him for related purposes. Otherwise, there is no limit on harming him for the utilitarian purpose of preventing drunk driving: the courts could chop off his arms and ND banish him from campus and its record books. Lots of students would pay attention then!
StarKruzr
>categorical imperative in a discussion of football
Yep, this is an ND sports blog, all right.
flanders
I hope that you are truly held fully accountable when you make a mistake so that you can say “see, I earned that penalty”!
TLNDMA
It’s nice if others learn from Floyd’s consequences, it’s unfair to Floyd that they must.
IrishChan
If only we held our countries politicians (or ourselves) to the same level that we hold our athletes. The kid got a DUI! We can all agree that people should not be drinking and driving. But should he lose his job because of it?! I could see him losing his job if his job required him to drive a vehicle for the university.
Let’s not forget ( I can tell you from personal experience) that he’s faced a very tough few months of court dates, spending the night in jail, probation officer visits, alcohol classes… and so on. Plus, he’s had to face the entire nation and discuss his mistake.
Look, I got a DUI 3 years ago and it was the most trying, embarrassing, humbling experience of my life. Thank god I didn’t have people lobbing and writing articles that I should lose my career as well!
Let the kid learn from his mistake as I did. You NEVER drink and drive! EVER! I can’t imagine how hard this most have been for Floyd. He’s been punished and he excepted it like a man.
I say…. let’s allow the kid to concentrate on his academic career and football career and put all this behind him!
OderName
DMQ – I love you and all, but maybe you can enlighten the rest of us on exactly what Floyd’s punishment and process has been over the last four months. Since you’re in a position to assert that the process is not sufficient to be “consquences that would make them, and anyone near them, think real hard about ever doing something so stupid again”, you clearly know more than we do. Maybe Floyd didn’t have any difficult repercussions, but I’m guessing (and hoping) that BK has put him through hell to deliver the message.
Avon Domer
As someone who has had a real problem with this Michael Floyd situation, I want to thank you all for chiming in on this subject in an intelligent and rational manner. So many threads like this one fall into ridiculous name-calling and other such worthless nonsense which becomes way too tiresome for me to deal with.
When I heard that Floyd was back on the team I orginally thought that here is Notre Dame selling out on its values and beliefs to win football games, which is not the reason I love Notre Dame as much as I do, and that bothers me tremendously. I want Notre Dame to stand for doing the right thing in regards to demanding high standards of its students and everyone associated with the University.
However, much of what was written in this thread is helping me to think further on this issue. My sincere hope is that Coach Kelly’s belief that Floyd will leave his indisgressions in the past and will represent himself and Notre Dame as he should in the future, will come to pass. While all of this is still very uncomfortable for me, you all have helped feel slightly better about it. Thank you!
Trey
One student getting a DUI doesnt change ND’s ability to hold people to higher standards. If anything, it provides her a unique opportunity to face a very serious issue and REALLY change a person’s life for the better
Patrick
Matt – have you ever been given a second chance? If so, I’d like to talk to the person that gave it to you . . . and preach about moral fiber. Regardless of how recent or long ago it was, I want to make sure your academic, personal and professional life is mired by it.
How “Christ-like” does that sound? No go back, re-think what you said and write a new blog, actually embodying the principles you are touting.
Mike McIntyre
Matt,
Your “make an example out of him to influence others” argument is weak. Even the legal system does not put much weight on the old “send a message” argument. Even if we consider this argument as a valid reason for handling Mike’s crime,I’m sure that Mike’s colleagues have all learned a great lesson from Mike’s indescretion. Mike received a standard sentence for a first offender from St Joseph’s County. Res Life has also confined him to a campus dorm (not an insignificant punishment for a senior at Notre Dame)and he lost his position of captain of the team. He also was in limbo for over four months. Anyone who thinks that Mike’s punishment did not fit his crime is a prig, especially when considering the loyalty that Mike had previously shown to Notre Dame. Go Mike! Go Irish!
JTHom
Floyd has been through the legal system. Justice is complete if you believe in our country’s legal system. If not then we are left with those closest to Floyd to help him. His parents, Coach Kelly and probably a handful of other people are all involved. We are all merely fans of a sports entertainment enterprise and are all entitled to our opinions as to how the drama unfolds. I hope we can all acknowledge we should have no actual say in this man’s life.
terry
Interesting range of opinions here, nice to see them expressed in a mostly civil fashion.
My opinion – he should have been suspended for two games.
It was not, however, my decision to make – it was Coach Kelly’s. He made it – obviously without consulting me, which I find highly upsetting – but I’ll get over it.
Joel
Grace. It’s what Christ has given us from the Cross it’s what Brian Kelly is showing to Mike Floyd. I don’t read in here about the steps Mike has taken throughout all of this. He’s worked his butt off to get back and Brian Kelly said if you simply reach these goals, there is a light at the end of the tunnel, the full redemption of playing football, but more importantly saving YOUR NAME! Who are we to judge these kids? Pull the plank out of your own eye before you talk about the speck in someone else’s eye. Jesus said “Let him who is without sin cast the first stone” But he followed that with “Now go and sin no more”. Mike Floyd has paid his dues and you naysayers who want to cry about need to go look at the USC’s of the college football world where there is NO consequences for your actions. I think this was a great teaching moment to a young man and I hope BK and ND continue on this path of redemption and not condemnation. It’s on Mike Floyd to take it and run now. He’s had his break. It’s up to him to get his NAME back, or it’s up to him now to destroy it. Good job BK and ND. Other universities could take a lesson from this as well.
FightingSonOfNotreDame
He went before a judge, he served his community service time, he went above and beyond what the typical ND student would have to do in the same scenario.
Drunk driving is a serious offense but why should he be held to a higher standard than any one else?
Kelly absolutely did the right thing, Floyd should not have to miss a game after responding in all the right ways just because some conservative fans have some arbitrary view of crime and punishment they want to implement.
Kevin
You are an idiot. He made a mistake and has done more than 95% of most people rectifying it.
The Biscuit
“…more than 95% of most people rectifying it”. And you’re calling DMQ an idiot?
indy
Mike’s situation aside, the statement about what a parent would do in this situation is flat out wrong. Kids frankly make stupid and selfish decisions all the time, and in particular when it comes to drugs and alcohol, parents have to strike a balance between helping kids recognize the consequences of their actions and protecting them from lifelong consequences.
What’s clearly best for Mike is to be under a zero tolerance policy going forward while being allowed to play football. He drinks too much, and has made bad and immature choices. That may not square with the interests of Notre Dame to set strict standards with real consequences for the behavior of its students, but let’s not conflate the two.
kjbags
If the judge didn’t see a need for Floyd to do any jail time then why should a football coach exact a stiffer penalty?
The Biscuit
You think missing a game or two is more serious than jail time?
Brian
I also am a bit confused as exactly what opportunity was missed here. I don’t believe a gratuitous suspension would’ve sent a message to anyone. Obviously, the previous punishments of Yeatman, Powers-Neal, McAlerny, Stonebreaker, Kelchner, etc. etc. did nothing to prevent Floyd from making a mistake. If they sent any message to “young people”, the message was “don’t come to Notre Dame, because if you make a mistake, you’re gone”. Weis and others have readily admitted that those previous punishments have been used against them on the recruiting trail.
Also, as to your update, adding a punitive punishment onto one to send a message to others makes no sense whatsoever. You admit you think he’s learned from this process, but you want to punish him more so others don’t do it? That doesn’t make any sense to me.
If anything, this was an opportunity gained. The message opposing coaches use that “mess up at Notre Dame and you’re gone” is no longer relevant. The message is that “mess up and there will be consequences, but we will support you IF and only IF you are willing work and learn from your mistakes to be a better man.”
Mike’s life hasn’t been easy this summer. The SBT readily says that Mike was very uneasy answering questions about his drinking and personal life, and the ND could’ve very easily shielded him from the press. But they put him front and center on this…and will do it again at Media Day. He’s learning some valuable life lessons. What life lessons do you think Terrel Pryor is learning right now? …and he got a pretty big suspension.
tony
Matt,
It’s obvious your on a power trip and if you have any sense of decency you would be able to see past your holier than thou attitude. I’ve always heard the people who criticize the most have the most skeletons in their closet and I’m sure you do just like everyone. Floyd made bad choices but remember hes 21-22. If he was not trying to atone for what he did and did not do the right things then yeah he should be suspended for good. In my opinion your a joke for the lack of understanding and your criticism that is long past when it should have been given. Get off your horse and realize shitty things happen to people and you as an outsider who probably does not know him as a person should get a life. I mean you dont see us criticizing you for writing for sub-standard website.
Matt Quirion
A power trip… on what power, exactly? It’s an opinion piece inviting discussion.
The Biscuit
But you just called his writing sub-standard. Which is criticism. Now I’m confused!
Matt Quirion
If we can assume that “standard” means “average,” then I’m quite confident that we’re not “sub-standard.”
At least he didnt’ compare us to Bleacher Report.
The Biscuit
If he’d put dancing leprechauns in there I might’ve agreed just due to awesomeness
Trey
I disagree with mq on this topic, but you are WAY out of line. A ‘substandard website?!?’ You dont get asked by NATIONAL SPORTSWRITERS and owners of opponent’s blogs for guest commentary for writing shill on a ‘substandard website.’
Mq, biz (and i guess poot to a degree) have been writing exceptional content with more thoughtful content than you could ever hope to fathom. You are a repulsive troll, and a substandard one at that. Go back to your ndnation fanboy board, you despicable wretch
terry
Those who hate Notre Dame – those for whom she can do nothing right – will find fuel for their hate in the coach’s decision.
Those for whom she can do nothing wrong will find justification in the coach’s decision.
The kid messed up, he fessed up, the coach set the bar, the kid made it, the coach said “you’re back.”
Earlier I remarked that the disagreements were being expressed in a mostly civil fashion, but that no longer seems the case.
Some of the more recent posts:
Biblical quotations – “he among you who is without sin” – always a favorite,
“power trip” – of more recent vintage,
“you are an idiot” – also or more recent vintage.
The name calling is getting more than a little sophomoric, gang – can we at least pretend to be civil?
OMT – Good movie – ‘Cowboys and Aliens’. 2 hours of escapist entertainment, nothing more, nothing less.
30 days and 3 hours until the season starts.
The Biscuit
I too like civil and reasonable conversation. Unfortunately, this is the internet.
Tom
I’ve worked with problem drinkers for over 30 years,young people and older people and the ones who quickly demonstrate to those in authority close to them a real sense of remorse and willingness to change, have been able to maintain abstinence for many years. It is a judgment call in all cases. A severe punishment is not always the answer nor is being too lenient. Coach Kelly has watched Michael very closely and I feel certain they have had many conversations since the incident. With a man who has worked with more young people than most of us writing here, I believe the coach has the insight to judge Michael better than any of us. Positive direction without long term damaging punishment is better for the young man’s willingness to abide by the rules set forth. Let no one be hood winked here, Coach Kelly will shine a spotlight on Michael’s behavior brighter than the press. He is interested in the young man first, then the talented football player. By helping him through this senior year, sure to be challenged with media and unsavory attempts to undermine his return, I thing Coach Kelly and Michael will be triumphant.
Erik '04
tony’s 10:27am (cdt?) comment aside, this has been a great discussion. Well done everyone.
Whiskeyjack
ACross has apparently taken over posting for DMQ around here.
Was it “unmitigated stupidity” for Ragone to get caught with marijuana? Were you outraged that he didn’t miss any game time? Of course you weren’t.
Every time a ND “fan” expresses this kind of sentiment over Floyd’s reinstatement, he’s really just upset that he can’t lord ND’s moral superiority over the fans of other schools as easily. Excuse me if I don’t think that should be a factor in deciding how the University disciplines its students.
We’re witnessing the long overdue passing of yet another terrible Monk Malloy policy; ND, as elite academic institution, was embarrassed to be a “football school”, so it crushed its high profile athletes with draconian discipline when one of them inevitably stepped out of line in order to prove to the cynics that “we’re different”. Fairness was sacrificed at the altar of PR.
The haters were going to throw this in our faces regardless of how the situation was handled. Stop worrying about what they think; whether our University is doing right by its own is all that matters.
Whiskeyjack
Just realized DMQ didn’t write this post. So Matt = ACross, not DMQ. Apologies for the confusion.
Matt Quirion
Except I am DMQ, so there was no confusion. Confused?
Trey
Why did you drop the mq moniker, anyway? The mystique added to your persona
Whiskeyjack
Tricksy rabbit.
i c wut u did thar
david saint
You have to ask the question, “what is more important here: Floyd learning his lesson and never making the mistake again, or the appearance of discipline to satisfy critics?”. Im going with the first one. So long as he learns his lesson and never does it again, I am quite happy with the punishment he received. So what if he doesn’t miss a game as long as the end result is his future health and success!? I’ve lost 2 people to drunk driving, one a family member the other a best friend..both did it to themselves because they didn’t learn their lesson (if jail didn’t help them, what is a missed game going to do i have to ask?). So, from my perspective Kelly did the right thing regardless of what anyone says.
NWohioND
DMQ…I always like your thoughts and I may not agree with your argument totally, I respect it and appreciate it. The site you and Biz provide is excellent and I appreciate the insight…everyone’s got an opinion so I’m not sure you’re on a “power trip” or that you’re an “idiot”…it your opinion just as the replies are opinions…this along with the “top 25 players” is another example of people overreacting…I don’t agree with you on the “message” sent…you could suspend him for 1 game and people would say why not 2 or 3…you could’ve done 2 and people would say why not 3 or 4…the anti’s are never going to be happy and to be honest, I don’t care. The teenagers don’t really see it as that…I know when I was 15-18 years old and a sports player got in trouble and got leniency on the punishment it didn’t allow me to do something similarly stupid because I thought I’d get off too…it comes down to parenting for people to get it or not…I don’t think making an example of him makes any difference one way or another on “the message”
But again, I respect your thoughts and this site…thanks again…
what #3…nice apology…
Matt Quirion
Excellent points. Suspension leads to a slippery slope.
NWohioND
It’s just difficult all around…and it’s solely Floyd’s fault…he put himself and the university in this situation and it’s unfortunate and unnecessary.
Drinking and driving is wrong and cannot be excused…it’s hard for me to judge as I did more, more than my fair share of stupid things…this being one of them…so to critisize is difficult…just very glad he or nobody was hurt…
The Biscuit
Who is this Matt Quirion anyway? We need DomerMQ to weigh in here…
borromini
You do realize some folks will take this literally? 🙂
The Biscuit
Well that’s Matt Quirion’s fault for not making it clear then.
Brad
In regard to this issue, I think when ND has kids get in trouble, they should allow them to play, but shove a red-hot poker up their ass first.
And in regard to civility in our discourse…..
…anyone who disagrees with me is a terrorist.
DFMetz
Frankly, viewing this through the prism of football exclusively really misses the point. Agree that drunk driving is non-excusable. Also know that you, nor many others, really know the full extent depth of Floyd’s sanctions (what he had to do), and fewer still (like maybe only God) know what benefit that will or will not have in the long run.
So let’s all steer clear of judging based on perception or spin, and allow the unknown element of time – which we as a society seem to have in only limited supply – play out. Then, and only then, will we know if the approach employed by Kelly and the university were the right ones.
Brad
THIS MAN IS UNREASONABLE!
HE URGES PATIENCE!
DON’T LISTEN TO HIM!
HE IS A WITCH!
borromini
He’s probably a Democrat too!
bill polaha
Matt i have 1 word to say about your article. may be 2 words. it stinks. ok
The Biscuit
thats 3 words
Matt Quirion
You left your e-mail address in the URL field of the comment section. That sorta sums things up nicely.
frank
what a poor article. ND is finally on track doing the right thing and this Geico Caveman tries to paint a valuable, positive mentoring and teaching experience as costing more than 15% for car insurance
if you need a second chance in life hopefully someone will be a lot smarter and benevolent than you
The Biscuit
man, did you read this article? or do you just see ‘i dont agree with ND/Kelly’ and react with vitriol automatically? this wasn’t an article condemning floyd. it’s an article about one guy’s thoughts about what the consequences should be, and he thinks they should include some kind of game suspension. he didn’t say floyd should be banned or kicked out or anything of the sort.
Joe Magarac
Per the updated post, let’s assume that Kelly punished Floyd enough and that Floyd got the message. He doesn’t need to be suspended for any games. He is a changed man.
That assumed, the question is: should Kelly have suspended Floyd anyway, to send a message to third parties (other players, potential recruits, other schools)?
I think the answer is “no” for the following reasons:
1. Criminal sanctions have little to no deterrent effect. Britain once imposed the death penalty for petty theft, but there was still lots of petty theft. Suspending a player is not a criminal sanction, but the same reasoning applies: a suspension is not a likely deterrent.
2. There is an issue of fairness. The USA used to punish crack dealers far more heavily than powder cocaine dealers to send a message: crack was more addictive and was more destructive to the fabric of neighborhoods, so the government came down harder on crack dealers than it did on powder dealers, even though they were dealing the same underlying substance. After putting thousands of African-Americans behind bars, the USA decided that singling out crack – however well-intentioned it might have been – was not only unproductive but unfair, in that it punished some more harshly than others. Unless non-scholarship students who get DUIs are prohibited from extracurriculars (e.g., no Iceberg Debates or SYRs for you!), then I fail to understand why Floyd should have been prohibited from his extracurricular.
IrishLion10
Boy, alot of these people are really having a hard time grasping the ultimate message of this post.
borromini
“Boy, alot of these people are really having a hard time grasping the ultimate message of this post.”
Especially when you just made it so clear what the actual message is. 🙂
The Biscuit
It’s that quarter dogs should still cost 25 cents, and NOT 33. Right?
IrishLion10
I would’ve elaborated, but whoever the strange author to this post is summed it up very simply in the edit 🙂
Chuck
Dear Matt Quirion,
you are coming from the “spoare the rod, spoil the child” school. It’s a school of Punishment. Punishment is counterproductive. Punishment goes against the results it wants: improvement of beharior. The only remnant of a rod’s lashing is stinging and resentment…NO lesson learned.
On the contrary, a well administered educational experience where the subject LEARNS the consequences of his choices and SEES the benefits of CHOOSING BETTER ALTERNATIVES is a much better process for behavior improvement. PUNISHMENT is destructive. But a well administered process for improvement moves towards good results…even if the choice rests with the “student” in BOTH cases. Coercion (aka: “Punishment”) is counter-productive…look into your own mirror, when you were lashed with the rod: resentment and the wish for rebellion. And what did they lash you for? Do you remember?
Irishfan
Matt,
Please do not write any articles again. This was poor form and irresponsible writing. There is no doubt that the guy messed up. Have you made a mistake? Ever heard of 18 – 21 yr olds making mistakes?
Also, I noticed your “Update” stating you “did a poor job expressing my viewpoint”… No s&$^
And seriously, who are you to have the opinion whether or not the kid learned from his mistake? Do you know Mike Floyd? Do you frequently hang out with him? It’s rather arrogant to have such an opinion of a young person who you don’t even know.
There is no doubt Floyd made a mistake. A mistake that could have ended up in a terrible accident. Let’s just be thankful that didn’t happen and let’s be hopeful the young man learned his lesson. And how about you do the same.
The Biscuit
Geez man. First of all, this site has been here for 5 years. There will be more articles, and thousands of readers as there has been.
Second, his point had nothing to do with knowing Floyd, or even whether he learned from his mistake. His point was about whether others got the message. Not Floyd. Did you read it?
Or could you not see the words from your high horse?
BSteg
Biscuit, why are you defending the author so vigorously? I completely agree with Irishfan. This was a very poorly written article, and the “update” did not help. Biscuit, you need to take the internet cop sh!t somewhere else after you take the authors d!ck out of your mouth. It’s very annoying to see your smartass remarks after every post.
The thing is, not one person outside of mostly Brian Kelley and Micheal Floyd can voice their opinion on the severity of Mecheal’s punishment. To my knowledge, it is undisclosed as to the full extent of what Floyd had to go through to earn the trust of Brian Kelley and the University.
For the author of this article to say “I’m not confident that the learnings are highly available or renonant to his teammates or other young people” is pure ignorance. You have not been around Micheal Floyd with his teammates. You do not know how much he has changed or how much better of a person he has or has not become. Those who affiliate with Floyd, AKA teammates, will be the ones to tell whether the severity of his punishment was suffice or not. Therefore, the learnings are HIGHLY available to his teammates, and their reactions to the change in Floyd make the learnings of the process HIGHLY available to outsiders.
I disagree strongly with author on this so called “missed opportunity”. How is this a missed opportunity? Because the University did not severely punish Floyd? He wasn’t expelled from the University? He didn’t have jail time? He didn’t miss games?… Why must you make an example of Floyd by severly punishing the kid for a mistake? You are sadly mistaken by the process. Was the process to show how “tough” Notre Dame’s punishments are towards the mistakes made by young men? NO. The process was used to help Micheal Floyd grow and turn his life around and to learn from his mistakes.
For the author to say “missed opportunity” is shallow. Just remember, it is very easy to crucify a man to make a point when you do not know him. Not every offense is black and white. God bless the University of Notre Dame for not selling out Micheal Floyd, and instead being a prime example of what a Catholic institution should be, as well as ignoring the ignorance of people such as the author and his sidekick, Biscuit.
P.S. Biscuit, you deserve any grief in these comments, once you start reading material objectively from YOUR high horse, maybe you can actually contribute to the discussion of the theme of the article instead of defending the author and knocking every persons’ post.
The Biscuit
First of all, this is my freaking site. I have been running it with the author for 6 years. So I reserve the right to comment when and how I want. We also always allow open dialogue here, which is why I am letting your BS comment stay here rather than editing you out.
Putting your anti-gay comment aside, you homophobic ass, I will address your main point.
You think that no one can have an opinion here, right? Only Floyd and Kelly, yes? Then why are you on here spouting off your own freaking opinion? The only reason you have a problem with MQ’s opinion is Bc it doesn’t fit with your own or what you’d like it to be. But if he’s not allowed his, then you’re not allowed yours. So shut your ignorant trap or come at him with a valid point of view.
I am not exactly where DMQ is on this, nor do I think he should be attacked for stating his opinion and fostering discussion. And yes, when someone misses his point entirely or attacks him for something he didn’t say, I defend or clarify. That is, literally, my job in this case.
You most certainly have no right to come on my site and tell me what I can or can’t, or should/shouldn’t do. And I could give 2 shits about whether it annoys you or not.
Civil discussion and debate should be possible. It should be expected. But then there are people like you screwing it up.
Matt Q.
Okay, Bsteg, let’s just think this thru: first, you essentially threatened Biscuit in an attempt to get him to stop commenting so much. On his own blog. Tough talk there, brainiac. What was your next step after that? Call the “real Internet Police?” Next you implied a homosexual relationship between he and I. Surely this tactic has largely proven valuable in other endeavors you’ve taken to prove a point, winner.
I feel sorry for you. For surely you’ve no idea to this point that you probably, in general, have no thoughts of value to this world, and, even if you ever did, you show the capabilities for articulation of a brain-damaged, drunken ape.
Here’s a clue, half-wit, your “friends” are laughing at you. Always.
lairish
It is so easy to take the high road but what about this young man. He now has a chance to change his life form now on. Without this chance he may have never recovered
tjak
Matt, I believe you to be sanctimonious (sp). Give it a rest and do your homework. Floyd did all anyone could and would have been expected to do.
The Biscuit
Not his point
tjak
Then he is correct and needs to be clearer. Forgive me.
kt37
What is his point? Seriously, where in God’s name was he going with this? Spell it out for us peons.
The Biscuit
I might accept your not getting the original post. If you don’t get the update then you’re either not reading or there’s no hope. I never called anyone a peon, let alone my boy tjak who has been with us for years and a guy I consider a solid fan and friend.
kt37
Missed the update, sorry, long week.
The Biscuit
No worries. Sorry for the tone. Been getting a lot of people misreading it, and some blind attacks for no reason.
tjak
Thanks Biscuit. I was slow to the take too. Thanks for covering my a**. Go Irish!
Josh
I dont think sitting Floyd out for a game would teach him anything. Kelly gave him an ultimatum you are playing every game or not playing at all. That send a big messege to the team the coach Kelly is not messing around.
Steve
I am a big ND fan. I am also a high school teacher and coach! I totally understand why Coach Kelly did what he did! Most of you who are not teachers or coaches do not understand is how important it is to not give up on a kid. The easy thing to do is kick the kid off! What kind of leason is that? Micheal Floyd will be forever changed because of the faith Coach Kelly had in him! The bible says we are suppose to forgive seven x seven! I care more what kind of man and father Micheal becomes than what kind of football player he is!
terry
1) Happy Mark O’Connor’s 50th Birthday everyone
2) “All work and no play makes Jack a Peh Bah Pom Bahoo” – P. G. Wodehouse
3) Go Irish
4) LIGHTEN UP!!!
Paul
This article is perfectly written. I completely agree.