Sorry for the spelling and grammar. This iPad thing sucks.
There’s much to be discussed from last night. But right now all I’ve got access to is this iPad and 10 minutes of free time, and for whatever reason, I feel compelled to write this out. If there’s any single piece of advice I could ever give to the players of the Notre Dame football team, it is this: your leaders cannot be your screw-ups.
Without even bothering to look it up, I’m sure that Crist, Floyd, and Te’o all had solid statistical games, but they’re also the goats of last night’s loss. Great teams, hell even just good teams, have great players who do not miss 3rd down tackles, do not make throws that make my toddler shake her head, and do not drop the ball. That last one deserves reinforcement: leader don’t drop the ball, and they don’t drop the ball, and they don’t drop the ball, and they DO NOT DROP THE BALL. Having your leaders – your elite – drop the ball is the same as having your leaders hobbled so as to render them merely mediocre at best, even if they have a statistically strong day.
And so, with that in mind, I’d like to see the fans and coach Kelly stop worrying at all about the psyche of these player. The Irish didn’t lose that game because they practiced hard, gave it their all, and then some mystic force thwarted all of that effort. The Irish lost because a handful of their elite players screwed up. And those screw ups are entirely within the control of those player. This wasn’t bad luck. It was piss poor play, and the sooner these apparently fragile players, about whom everyone seems so concerned, realize that, the sooner ND may just figure out how the hell to become a winning program again.
I place quite a bit of blame on the coaching staff for these two losses, but frankly, this group of players look entirely to comfortable with screwing up, and while some of the leaders of this team may be pretty young, the wins and losses don’t get weighted based on average roster age, and the losses will continue to mount so long as the leaders continue to be screw-ups.
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GB
What about dropping the ball?
Nd has more talent than any of the teams they play except USC. I want to see it. I also want to see the defense show up. Both UMass and UConn’s D did a better job on Robinson than ND’s D. So far the D looks like it is trying to make Heisman contenders of Cousins, Robinson and Marve.
SDI
MQ–agree completely. Those 3 plays–the pick, the fumble, and the missed tackle were all killers, and by the people you expect more from. And because the defense is so bad (not always bad or consistently bad but in yards and points allowed bad) the margin for error just isn’t big enough to survive many mistakes. They have no ability to erase mistakes by consistently stuffing the opposing offense.
Having said all that, there was something cruel about that game last night. It wasn’t a great performance, but the O and D both seemed to have done just enough, played hard enough and gotten just enough plays on both sides of the ball to win, only to have an apparent victory evaporate into thin air.
CHEG94
I have to say that I know see what Kelly was talking about with Floyd. The man can catch the ball, but it is completely inexcusable to be dropping it as much as he had his year. Leaders hold on to the ball! Those fumbles were ridiculous and have now cost us two games. I give Christ and Teo a little more room for mistakes given their experience (just a little!), but for Floyd he is showing himself to be half a player. No one, no matter how talented, can be a great leader the way he is playing. Coach, straighten him out!
the biscuit
Agree. But it goes all the way to the head leader, Kelly, being a screwup too. Going for it on 4th and 1 on you side of the field with 6 minutes left is horrible. NOT debatable in any way. Just horrible.
Not having a guy dropped back for the fake is horrible. They practice all these scenarios right? Just not that one? Just need a coach to say ‘stand back there’ and its a W.
Our player-leaders are screwing up, but its likely they’re just following their leaders. Weis, now Kelly.
Terrible. This coach is better than this, his approach and philosophy and record are better than this. He needs to get back to being a sound in-game coach. Now.
domer.mq
Bullshit. They don’t fumble balls because of some mystic force that flows first through Kelly. Kelly’s made some mistakes, but the players need some blame slathered all over them right now.
the biscuit
Its not bullshit bc you and Pat misread my post (or I wrote it poorly). So let me recap: the very first thing I wrote was ‘Agree’. This means that I agree with your putting blame on players. That is one point. On this point, we agree.
Then I made the point that kelly is effing up all over the place too. This is in addition to, not instead of. At the end I made a joke saying that maybe the screwupedness is flowing from Kelly to the players but I don’t literally think there’s a magic force making this ‘happen’ to the guys on the field. Clearly the players are (or rather aren’t) making the plays.
And Pat, if you think going for it in that situation is debatable, then you’re just plain nuts. That was a terrible decision, plain and simple. And it did hurt us. We gave them the field position battle, and had we kept the field position advantage we may have had a shot at a long FG there at the end. You can’t say it didn’t hurt us just bc the D held…
SDI
I think the decision to go for it on 4th
gutsy verging on suicidal. But I was actually
glad he did it. Given the amount of time
that was left on the clock, it seemed like a
punt would be perfectly timed so that Sparty
could take a nice leisurely drive running the
ball down NDs throat for a score as time expired. Given how many times I’ve seen that
scenario play out lately, I was willing to roll the dice with the offense. I had a lot
more confidence in the O than the D (not that
that is saying that much).
Pat
Biscuit, I respect your opinion and call me crazy, but SDI sums up my opinion nicely. In that situation I can sympathize with the thinking that, given the time left, if they score, our offense may not get another shot on the field.
If you want to talk about field position at the end of the game, I think the block in the back foul that wasn’t call was a bit more devastating — not that I was much surprised.
TLNDMA
You can argue about the 4th down call, I guess? All I know is when they went for it I said to myself”what the f%^$ is he doing?” If you didn’t think that, you had been over- served.
My bet is Mr. Floyd is going to get a good talking to about ball security. Once from Kelly and daily from Tony Alford.
Dayne Crist looked way better on his passes into the end zone to Floyd, anybody mention that? He’s gonna be a good one.
Erik '04
I can see some merit to going for it on 4th and 1, but I wouldn’t have come out with 5 wides.
Everyone is lauding how Theo Riddick had a “breakout” game with a bunch of catches and a lot of yards and a TD, but how many drops did he have as well? He is a work in progress for sure, but I’m glad he made the catches he did to take some pressure off of Floyd and Rudolph.
Pat
No doubt it was a high-risk play call. But, of course, MSU won the game on a outlandishly risky play call.
trey
I, too, agreed with the 4th down call there at the time. You cant look at this in hindsight and say , ‘See, look, stupid call!’ At the time, it was the ONLY decently sustained drive wed had in a good number of series, time was a major factor, and you always play to win on the road.
Dantonio(get well, btw) is being celebrated for a much worse risk, and if ND had played that scenario even HALFWAY competently, we’re on our knees thanking every soul in heaven for planting that stuoid decision in Danny’s head and handing us the gm. Kelly said that was supposed to be man covg on the kick? how the fuck do you let your man run 40 yards behind you? Stupid stupid stupid!!!
Pat
Watch the play again. I just watched it about a dozen times. They pick up that that fake is on but Harrison Smith gets bull rushed and falls down.
trey
What is it going to take to just bench him? I mean, has he played a gm where he DIDNT make a bonehead play to cost us?
domer_mq
Well, they’re not gonna bench one of their 2 healty safeties right now, trey.
Pat
Trey, watch it again. It sucks, sure, but it’s really hard to crucify him for getting tripped up there.
The Biscuit
I didn’t look at it in hindsight and say it was no good. I said it as it happened. Just like the FG the week prior. Our coach is pressing, already, and I don’t like it.
The Biscuit
I have a bigger issue with Fleming looking stupefied on the fake. He drops back for a second, then pauses and watches the ball catcher run right by him, then gives chase after the pass is thrown. Smith got tripped up, boo, but Fleming just froze.
trey
So, domer, my question remains…what IS it going to take? You could tell MSU was intentionally targeting him because they knew he couldnt make a play.
Pat
Agree with Domer here in calling BS. Not every, single thing flows through the coach — sometimes your star players have to make plays. That’s just how it goes.
I agreed with you last week, Biscuit, but you like to say things are not debatable that, uh, might be debatable. That decision didn’t cost us (credit the D, sure, but it didn’t). We have a problem executing plays, namely on offense, because of unforced errors and boneheaded decisonmaking.
Craig
That’s ridiculous Biscuit, of course it’s debatable. In point of fact, the conventional wisdom in football is far too conservative (as represented by your excoriation of Kelly), and coaches should go for it on 4th down more often than they do.
With only one to gain, near midfield, and the certainty that failing and giving up a score wouldn’t be a direct loss, I say it’s not only debatable, it’s a smart decision.
TXIrish2
On both of Floyd’s touchdowns, he mistimed his jumps. Part of Floyd not looking as good may be the fact that JC isn’t throwing to him. Crist seems like he can hit the over the middle throws on a rope, but his touch on deep routes and fades is lacking, and thats where Floyd shines the most. Crist also fouled up a couple screens.
Offensive scheme is working. Hard to judge the defensive scheme, seems like the errors on D could be solved with better fundamentals. Some bad angles, not wrapping up could go a long way.
Ska
Crist has problems throwing the ball accurately when his feet are not planted. His fumble on 4th and 1 was after he gained 2 yards for a first down. Irish players still have the fail state of mind and need to move over to the success state of mind.
ND did everything possible to lose the game when they had multiple opportunities to win convincingly.
Again for the second week in a row, ND should have won the game had they played without inconsistency, both on offense and defense, not making the mental lapse errors that have been occurring for years (fumbles, poor execution, etc).
Pat
Good observation about Crist. It’s something I’ve noticed, too. They really need to work with him on throwing on the move outside of the pocket.
Craig
Crist was behind the line when he fumbled on the 4th and 1.
tjak
You know what, this whole conversation pisses me off. I am just as frustrated and angry as the next fan, but should we not give Kelly more than three games, before we suggest he will not be successful at Notre Dame. Three f#$#$ing games and some Irish fans are suggesting the players have given up on their coaches and that Kelly will be a failure. These fans need to get a life. Going for it on fourth and one was not a great play call in my mind, but Domer is right, this game was lost at several other moments in time by key personnel. Go on all you want about talent level, but we thin in key areas like the secondary. We can do better and I believe we will. During the summer everyone said we would need to be patient with this team, where is this patience>
The Biscuit
No one is giving up or saying any of those things here. Dmq is making a valid point that it’s tough to win when your best guys are making huge mistakes. I think that’s valid, and it did happen. No one has given up that I know of.
tjak
Read the message boards, there are many Irish fans who are like rats on a sinking ship. I apologize for confusing your angst with giving up.
domer_mq
That’s partly the nature of message boards. They’re there to encompass the conversation, and are thus very liberal with who gets to say what. We’ll always try to be different here, even if that means I have to be ruthless once in a while – for any POV.
domer_mq
Speaking of, it’s also part of the reason you can’t just create infinitely long reply threads in the comments here.
The Biscuit
no worries, just clarifying. i am exasperated with some of Coach Kelly’s decisions, but i do believe he has a plan that will work over time. i think some of what he’s doing he’s doing because he’s new to this job, feels some pressure, etc. things that are temporary by nature. i think he’ll settle in, and i think the team will settle in as his tenure takes hold. it is only game 3 after all. but man, these last 2 have been brutal.
StewVee
We’re now 1-2. The two teams we’ve lost to — in the last seconds of their respective games — are both 3-0 and in the Top 25. We’ve made some horrible mistakes in both those games and should’ve beaten both UMich and MichSt by two touchdowns. It sucks. But I can’t help but feel oddly optimistic about the team’s growth.
This team’s a work in progress! Still learning Kelly’s system, still learning how to play as a team, still learning how to win — even though that last part has been the most elusive aspect of this ND team so far.
The defense is better than last year. The offense is better than last year. The coaching is better than last year. Mistakes are part of the process. Given time, this ND team will be good, maybe even great. But we can’t expect to have a program that was essentially run into the ground by Charlie to be 3-0 right now and playing near flawless ball.
uncle jesse
I agree with you that ND could have beat either or both of UM and MSU, you’re completely delusional if you think you should have won both those games by 2 tds…
Ska
Dantonio had a heart attack around 12:30am after the game. Wishes he recovers well.
But jeez how about all the ND fans that have been living with the last minute losses the last few years. Ever wonder how our hearts a holding up.
Danno27
Agree with you Tjak and StewV,
We should be optimistic. Having two of the brains of this blog argue at each other doesn’t help anything. Yeah, Kelly has made some calls that would make even CW blush, but we wouldn’t have lost this game or the Michigan game were it not for the turnovers. You can’t “coach” people not to turn the ball over, other than enforcing fundamentals (which we know BK does).
I don’t really care about the 00 on the playclock, either, which I’ve seen complaints about in various venues – if H. Smith doesn’t get tripped by Carlo, that play fails.
It’s a long season. I believe it will start swinging back towards ND’s way. I (literally) am betting on this team turning it around – just bet my Penn State buddy ND would have a better record than PSU by the end of the year. Go Irish!
Erik '04
You’re right about Harrison Smith. People are blaming Kelly for not putting someone back there to guard against the fake, but they definitely did not have the block on. Kelly mentioned that they had a guy back there, but that he “fell down.” Looked like he may have been tripped, but either way it’s not like we didn’t have it defended, we just didn’t execute it and they did.
The Biscuit
we’re not arguing at one another. we’re sharing our thoughts just like everyone else here. it’s what we do. and in this case i actually 100% agree with dmq…
canuck 75
I agree that Floyd is the one who deserves flak. Crist is playing like a seasoned veteran and not a kid in his first away start. He is going to make one mistake a week at least. That is pretty acceptable for a new starter. He put some touch on a couple of passes, which is a correction from week 2.
What is wrong with Cierre Wood? Now Kelly has to show that he is wiser than Charlie and take Cierre out of the rotation. Jonas got 10 yds on one carry, and his other carry was blown up before he could move.
I will admit to being a complainer about the refs. However, the call on Lo Wood was inexcusable, but the play clock?Is there anything more fundamental to the rules? Maybe a 5th down for Stanford this week if they need it!
WE need our contracts to say that we will supply the refs, all of whom may or may not be ND grads.
SDI
Yeah, Wood doesn’t look right. He seems really tenative and slow, on both runs and kick returns. Not sure what is up with him.
Mark
As far as the playclock is concerned, I had a big ten ref explain it to me today (he is a back judge who looks at the clock.) Here is his explanation: “As a back judge, we are taught to look at the clock. If it reads zero we then look at the man snapping the ball. If he has started snapping the bawll he’s okay. If he has not started the snap, then it’s a flag. So technically, there is time left in the clock when it reads zero.”
This is why you cannot just look at a playclock and the play simultaneously.
P.S. Harrison Smith still blows and we should have punted the first time.
P.P.S. Go Irish, hold Stanford to under 500 yards of offense.
Daybreakboys
Is anyone else sick and tired of Notre Dame’s obligatory slow safeties?
It seems our safeties KILLED US on Saturday.
The Biscuit
Daybreak the safeties had a rough go but remember that 2 of the safeties are hurt And zeke is a first time starter because of it. And with two hurt they played the entire game. Tall order for them. Agree they can and should do better though.
Erik '04
Kelly also mentioned that 3 (three!) of our 5-6 defensive backs played with significant injuries yesterday, and that doesn’t include Slaughter or McCarthy I don’t think. I know I saw Zeke Motta get up real slowly after one play. We just have no one else on the sidelines to put in there. You want Barry Gallup Jr. playing defense for us? That doesn’t excuse Harrison Smith’s poor tackling (how many times is he going to lunge with his arms at a guys shoulder pads?) or their terrible angles that aren’t even close to the play on the sideline, though.
StewVee
Slaughter up to playing speed by Sat? Let’s hope.
Mike81
I’m also weirdly optimistic. Last year (hell, the past three years) we watched a team with wild talent at the skill positions go into inexplicable funks for 2, sometimes 3 quarters at a time, before last minute rallies that sometimes worked, sometimes didn’t. This year’s close losses don’t feel like last year’s close losses. This team can grind it out and move the ball consistently. And we actually have a defense. Yeah, we screw up sometimes, but the screw ups make “sense” (all except for Floyd) – inexperience, injuries at safety, dumb luck, bad coaching calls. We always said we could accept CW’s losses if the team just continued to make progress, instead of yo-yoing. This year’s team is making progress. I don’t think they will shut down after game 6.
Joe Magarac
Agreed.
ND went 5-6 under Faust in 1985 and then went 5-6 under Holtz in 1986. But they were completely different seasons. Under Holtz, the losses were close and the team battled. They beat USC at the end of the 1986 and were off to the races the next two years.
History may be repeating itself. It feels like it.
shoutboxx
Mike81, that’s exactly how I feel about it. I was crushed on Saturday night, but on balance (and I know this is a bizarre statement) I feel better about the last two losses than I did about many of our wins last year. At least this year, I can see the pieces moving into place, even if the puzzle isn’t together and I’m not 100% sure what it will look like when it is. Last year, Clausen was called on for heroics game after game, and it wasn’t realistic to expect him to deliver that all the time. This year, we’re finally looking like a team and finding an identity. I agree, I don’t see the team quitting in the second half of the season, regardless of what happens between now and then.
trey
Biscuit, was it you or subwayalumni that tweeted something like ‘Im sick of these types of things never going our way?’ I read that an completely agreed. While I am with you on the comment that the ‘stars’ of our team are the main blame, could we maybe get SOME luck for once? I cant remember the last time a fluky play or trick call actually worked FOR us to decide a gm.
domer_mq
Probably me. I think I said something about being sick of being on the short end of “ballsy” plays like the fake. MSU ’05 was like that in a way. In OT, MSU won the game on the first option play they called the entire season.
trey
Exactly. Point me to a specific play where WE got some fluke to win us a gm? The only things i remember were either just game sealers or simlle momentum shifters.
MSU ’07, that int off the MSU rec’s back ended the gm.
Fumble on the 1 by UW, ‘Pass Right’ to open the gm.
Even the 6(?) fumbles by scUM in ’08 didnt really ice a gm for us.
Pat
I think what you are saying is that the breaks are beating the boys.
TLNDMA
Got it Rock. I think it’s a mind set.Kelly doesn’t like losing and I don’t think he will,for very long.
trey
Not at all. The BOYS are beating the boys, as mq points out in this article. I’m justasking when will the time come when some kind of fate helps us OVERCOME those mistakes? It always seems to help our opponents beat us when they play like shiite(USC last yr) but never in our favor.
NWohioND
I’m still pissed…2 weeks in a row…it’s the coaches/players fault…hard to fault one more than the other…I’m just tired, tired, tired of being on the short end of games like this…I told the wife when it went to OT…it’s not good…it’s OT for ND at Michigan St., not good…I hate being like that but it’s just instilled in me over the last few years…I so F#%#$*& tire of losing…I’m still F#%$$R@ pissed off and won’t get over it until we start winning…I believe in Kelly due to his track record, it obviously works and I know we’re all in a “do it now” world…we do need some patience but damnit I don’t have any…did I mention I’m freakin tired of losing games like that…
Come on boys…get it going against Stanford and Harbaugh…god knows they’ll be ready with that prick of a head coach…