This week’s IBG is hosted by Keith over at Inside the Irish from NBC Sports. And I have to say, Keith really threw out one doozey of an IBG. So much so that I had to really consider whether or not I would even answer the questions this week. So here goes nothing…
1. Obviously, Saturday night’s game is massive. Win, and the Irish get to nine wins after starting 0-2, and you can make a really persuasive argument that they’re deserving of a BCS berth. Lose, and ND only makes incremental progress over last year’s 8-5 record. Three potential outcomes: Win, close loss, ten-point loss. How does your takeaway for the season change?
Win: Just another step in the process. We’re all demanding that Notre Dame get back to playing championship-level football, and this would be a step to doing so. A big step, no doubt, but big relative to what? Tough to say. How big of a step is a win over a highly-ranked Stanford relative to a coaching staff managing to get both the offensive and defensive lines to play very well on a consistent basis? What’s the bigger step?
Close loss: A disappointment. A bummer. But would it be heart-breaking? Tough to say. Michigan was a close loss this year and it’s eaten at me ever since. But what if it were a close loss in the sense that we just got out-played, but in a very scrappy performance kept it close enough that Stanford was never comfortable until the game ended? A disappointment, to be sure.
10+ pt Loss: Also a disappointment. But probably no more than what’s described above. Maybe just because I hate losing in a binary sense. I simply hate losing. And there aren’t really moral victories to be had in losses.
2. Right now the Irish have 15 prospects committed to the 2012 recruiting class. Let’s assume every starter with a year left is coming back (Cave, KLM, Cwynar and Slaughter) and the Irish end up signing 20 recruits. That’ll make 93 players technically available for the 85-man roster (With Mike Ragone potentially being No. 94). Assuming Te’o and Eifert are back next season, what reserves do you invite back for a fifth year? Why?
Fifth-year candidates:
Crist: Nope. Ship has sailed. Wish he were a jerk so that I didn’t feel bad about it.
Goodman: Nope. Relatively sure we can find someone else who can fair-catch punts.
Walker: Nope. He’s still with the team?
Golic: Probably. But I’d be really curious to see what his strength numbers look like. They’d better have a damned good trajectory.
Clelland: Probably. I like having OTs. OTs who haven’t been played much but have been around the program for years could be very useful in injury situations.
Hafis Williams: No. We can throw another body at the problem if a problem arose where we’d need a Hafis.
Brandon Newman: No. Funny dude though.
McDonald: No.
Posluszny: No.
McCarthy: No.
Ragone* (Sixth Year): No. Frankly I think he should probably retire from football at this point.
3. If you ran the website NDNation, what would you do with it? It’s the most prominent Notre Dame hub on all of the internet, but it’s got a very vocal faction of readers/fans that seem to control the agenda — most often with a significantly negative point-of-view. What would you do if that was your website?
I’d shrink it.
First, let me say, I believe that the operators of NDN have the best of intentions. They simply want ND to win. Just as I do.
Further, NDN is the silverback of ND websites. At least in terms of traffic. We’ve been linked to from the front page of Yahoo, the Washington Post, Deadspin, The Big Lead, etc… and none of that linkage has ever come close to throwing as much traffic towards HLS from a single link as the typical link from NDN’s recent news widget.
Also, I’ve got some history with NDN, as I’ve helped Mike figure out javascript issues on his site in the past, and I’ve given Scott advice on some of their implementation of the front-page. I was even working with them on a “fire Ty” website in the days leading up to Willingham’s firing.
And I was also a frequent commenter on their boards. That was until I’d 1) gotten banned under their old “tier” system of “special people in Rock’s House, everyone else to Cartier” because I tried to point out to “JVan,” one of the ops, that his “rationale” on a particular point he’d made was based entirely in mythology, folk lore, and victory march lyrics and not in actual quantifiable facts. After my banning to Cartier, I was eventually allowed back into Rock’s House for whatever reason (I think they changed their tier system again), but at that point I’d tired of the charades.
The problem with NDN is that it’s gotten too big. It’s big to the point that there are quite a few commentators who seem to only “contribute” to the discussion in hopes of winning approval from either the Board Ops or some of their more “influential”. Commenters like this one. Eager beavers. Yes-men. People who, conciously or not, are attracted to the discussion, and “participating” in the discussion only because NDN is big, and they feel like if they can throw their “yeah, I agree” type posts under someone else’s, they’ve managed to give themselves a voice. Even if they aren’t really formulating any opinions of their own, and only squawking NDN talking-points. And particularly if they can’t seem to demonstrate an ability to articulate an original thought for themselves.
And the problem with that is it falsely reinforces the beliefs of the influential members of the site and/or Board Ops, which are almost universally negative towards the current state of the ND football program. Which in turn falsely “validates” the notion that those influential posters and board ops don’t actually need to bother with real facts to manage to analyze the state of the program, any particular games, or even the simple strengths and weaknesses of the coaches.Because, as you see, those members feel quite confident that they “know it when they see it.” And the yes-men love to help them feel that confidence, so long as they get to be included in the crowd.
This was once again illustrated for me personally when relatively infamous Rocks House poster “ACross” called me out. It seems he feels I’m not a very nice person and that I have an axe to grind with him and members of Rocks House. Which is false. I only have an axe to grind with people who can’t form original thoughts and/or refuse to use facts as a basis for analysis and thought-leadership. ACross declared his thoughts about me on Rocks House a few weeks ago, claiming I was bitter for being booted from the board. Which I was informed of about 6 different ways within 5 minutes of each other. I thought that odd, given that I’d not actually been booted from that board, so I went on Rock’s House and posted a response to ACross asking him to clarify. I also invited him to come on over to HLS and let me know what he thinks of me here so as not to clutter RH with what is apparently a dispute he’s having with me in his head.
In the course of that thread building in Rock’s House, “Cash” came to discover that I am the operator of HLS and “domer_mq” on Rock’s House, and decided to take a swipe at a post NDTex had written on HLS. And in the same thread, “JVan” went ahead and replied to my stance that I only demand that people use a factual basis to develop arguments with his patented “I know it when I see it.” He then went ahead and locked the thread so I couldn’t reply. Oh well. So much for an opportunity to debate the merits of his theocratic approach to college football fandom.
Again, I don’t really believe these guys are “bad guys.” I think they’ve just lost track of what it is they’re doing. It’s less about encouraging discussion about Notre Dame football on that site so much as it is about building consensus behind an agenda which they apparently also privately discuss on another site entirely, out of the view of most of the Rock’s House’s audience.
As we mentioned before, nothing throws traffic around in the ND blogosphere like NDN. So we fully realize that our answer here may well cost us all that traffic. But our mission all along at HLS has been about being part of the overall discussion around Notre Dame and College Football and hopefully improving it. And for all the traffic that NDN throws, practically none of the traffic coming our way from them actually reads our content anyway. This season, the average reader coming to HLS from a link on NDN sticks around for about 1 minute. To put some context around that, over the same period, our average reader coming to HLS from a link on Twitter will stick around for about 7 minutes. Which audience do you figure is actually reading our stuff? So while we’d love to think of NDN’s linking to HLS as a nod towards offering alternative points of view, we can’t help but notice that practically none of their audience is reading our points of view anyway. And besides that, we can’t help notice that any content on HLS that unambiguously disagrees with a NDN “talking point” never gets linked at all.
Assuming NDN really does want to promote great discussion around ND Football (and I choose to do so), we’d shrink it. Get rid of anyone who tends to do nothing but make sure they agree with Cash or Across or Bonger on whatever they’ve decided to post. It would help mitigate the echo-chamber that tends to convince them they really do “know good football when they see it” and allow people making a good faith attempt to provide alternate points of view to do so without being shouted down in a cacophony of internet geese.
4. You’re Brian Kelly. You spent last recruiting class successfully upgrading the front seven of the defense. Over the next two recruiting classes, what position groups do you absolutely need to upgrade to get the Irish over the BCS hump?
1) Defensive Backfield: If your opponents can’t run and can’t pass against you, winning games gets a lot easier. The easier winning becomes, the easier it is to reach the BCS.
2) Offensive “Athlete:” We really, really need a game-breaking player or 2 on offense that no only creates some perception of match-up problems for defenses, but also has the ability to run away from everyone once he has the ball.
5. I’ve seen dozens of analogies used to describe the current state of the quarterbacking position at Notre Dame. What’s your favorite, or the one you think is the most appropriate?
I’m constantly reminded of the scene in “Beautiful Girls” where the main character is describing his girlfriend as a “Good, solid, seven and a half.” In everything. That’s really sort of where we are with our QB situation. Sure, there are things that might drive you mad, but there are a lot of other things that are being done very well on average. Still, we all know it’s possible to find someone, somewhere, who could be a “10,” but we’ve got to attract a “10” in the first place. Supermodels, Will. Supermodels.
6. Get out the crystal ball. Even after an unimpressive weekend, the Irish are right around a seven-point underdog to Stanford. Do the Irish leave Palo Alto victorious?
When watching Stanford versus Oregon, I was rather unimpressed with new David Shaw’s management of the game. To me, it looked like he was just hanging on and hoping Andrew Luck could lead the team to victory, without any real adjustments in-game. But it turns out Stanford is even stronger in the 3rd quarter than the Irish this season, outscoring opponents by 97 points (versus ND’s 64). So perhaps I was wrong about that. But in that one game against Oregon, when the Ducks really started rolling, there still seemed to be little adjustment defensively by Stanford, and not enough athletes in their defensive backfield to keep up with the spread offense. So I’m going to hope that ND’s own version of the spread can get going, the Irish revive the “warp speed” of a couple of weeks ago, and the Irish win a close game, 30-28.
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Well said on NDN, even though I’m sure we can kiss our traffic from them goodbye. Oh well, not like any of my work ever got linked after Cash took the swipe you mentioned (well, expect for the post in which I said I was wrong). I’d love for NDN to actually be a discussion forum once again, but I’m not holding my breath.
I agree entirely with the response about NDN. They fail to see the improvements in the program in the last two years and instead have adopted a “don’t tread on me attitude” regarding jumbotrons, field turf, and uniforms which in reality does not make a single difference whether the team has success or not. They are clowns who will not tolerate any dissenting opinion. They like Ara and Holtz to near infallible deities as if the two have any relevance to what happens today. Well spoken response.
“To Big” might be the correct analysis. There were times when ND football discussion was free-flowing, interesting and fun at ND Nation. But as we all know, most folks don’t write a lot in praise of things. They write to complain and bitch. Unfortunately, as you’ve pointed out, the discussion has been drowned out by the 24/7 bitchfest. These days, somebody could post that Kelly was a member of the Hitler Youth as a young boy and I doubt if anybody would step up to challenge the stupid, including the site operators. But in their defense, policing all of the stupid these days would be a full-time job.
Yet, if somebody has the least praiseworthy thing to say about Notre Dame, Brian Kelly or any aspect of the football program, you’re sure to find the phrase “Kellylover” of “fanboy” in the dozens of posts that are sure to follow.
The ‘search for truth’ is gone from NDNation. It’s become a haven for those that would prefer to tear down rather than build, or complain rather than discuss. That’s a shame, because it used to be a great community.
You don’t want NDN’s braindead traffic. They have created such a bad name for Notre Dame on the internet they should be shut down. Seriously, what a bunch o—-
/banned for not mentioning fullbacks or how Kelly should be fired in the first sentence.
NDNation is an embarrassment, and daily does the best and most thorough job of negative recruiting of any entity in the country – greater by far than any opposing coaching staff. If you read that site and then jump over to reality for a second and check things out, you’ll see very few similarities. I’ve read several posts since the BC win that ND either saying outright or intimating that ND is trending down lately, that Kelly and the program are on such a cold streak that his job is in jeopardy. This appears to be almost a consensus opinion on NDN since BC. Yet people here in the real world see a ranked team winning for the 8th time in 9 games, and reading NDN, wonder what the hell those lunatics are even watching. They don’t deserve this program, they don’t deserve to root for this staff or those players or this university. They should content themselves with their made-up memories of football perfection (unless of course they were around for Leahy – those people actually did see football perfection) and leave the real, living world alone.
Agree completely on NDN, and the commenters above who mention how disappointing the situation there is. Kudos to Keith for calling out the negativity, and DMQ for risking the links with a reasonable response. Sadly, reasonable criticism will probably result in blacklisting, as the banhammer and blacklists are their favorite weapons, to be resorted to well before things like logic or facts. I’ve actually given up posting there, because I’d have to either (a) caveat anything remotely positive on Kelly to death or (b) spend a couple hours defending my post as not being idiotic just because some stats or opinions don’t conform to the vocal naysayers’ view of the program.
Look at recent work by folks who have tried to post that Kelly has made even small amounts of progress in his two years–you immediately have Across decrying any statistical analysis as “garbage” if it doesn’t back up his view, Jvan moving the ball if something they post refutes one of his “standards”, Cash making ad hominem attacks, etc. Funnily, El Kabong is the only reasonable one among the bunch, and he used to be more negative. I think he’s genuinely worried about the direction that site has taken, and maybe at least recognizes that there’s a problem (which the others certainly don’t). At least I hope so, as I’d love for it to get back to where it was five years ago.
I’m not “worried about the direction the site has taken” at all. I think the best thing that could happen would be if the football program actually gave us something to be happy about, because a lot of these problems would be solved.
By the way, if you really think we’d stop linking articles because of something like this that someone wrote, you really have a poor understanding of how the site works and might want to re-think your reply.
Whoops, reply shoulda been here. #mybad
This (the first paragraph, specifically; the rest is inside baseball) is just the kind of disingenuous, insincere stuff you all post on your own board when a gust of reality blows in and it’s pointed out to you that you all aren’t even fans of the team – aren’t even actually rooting for the team to win.
You (the NDN regulars) DON’T want ND to win. Not under Kelly. You really don’t. You can deny it all you want, but the rest of can read and can even think a little bit, and we can spot lies and insincerity when we see them.
I don’t know if it’s altogether sincere (the hate) or not, if it’s done for hits or not, but whatever the case, that is your website right now. It is a website with a company line and it is virulently anti-Kelly – and at such an early point in his tenure, with so much yet to be determined and with so many positive signs (in fundamental places – recruiting, line play, etc), that you all cannot even plausibly argue that you’re against Kelly because to be so is ultimately in the best interest of the program, as could have been done after Weis’s 3rd or 4th year or relatively early in Willingham’s tenure.
You all,whatever your reasons, are currently a cancer in Notre Dame football fandom.
EK, it appears as though the only way some NDN posters will ever be happy is if ND wins a MNC every year. If they don’t crush every team, every game, it’s a complete failure. And do you really want Urban Meyer as a coach? He had over 30 players arrested in his 5 years at UF. ND has standards, and chooses to abide by them, which is why sub alums such as myself love ND. There was so much negative attitude towards Weis, an ND alum himself, that I can nderstand why nobody would want the job. why should stoops or coughlin or Meyer want to come here after they see how one of your own gets treated?
But you aren’t happy and you will likely never be happy. That’s the point. And you won’t enumerate positives about the program because that would be against your overall pre-conceived conclusion about Kelly and the program.
We understand the frustrations with years of losing. But you can’t take all of that and force that on the current regime – much in the same way you can’t take your previous relationships with crazy women and force those impressions/feelings onto your current girlfriend.
And your second paragraph is a borderline threat. And it’s a fact you at least sometimes don’t link articles here that aren’t in line with your feelings about the program.
I was just acknowledging that our response might cost us in links. We’re thrilled to get the traffic. But we also feel it’s our responsibly to answer the question honestly, and so we did. Frankly, Mike, if you did stop linking to us because of it, it would disappoint me, but only because I think that’s beneath you.
Not sure why El Kabong got such a low comment rating–this response is perfectly reasonable. Where I had speculated on his thoughts, he sets the record straight and actually gives his thoughts. I, for one, appreciate that. Though I am a bit disappointed that my speculation was off base, as he seems to be the lone voice of reason over there.
I do stand by my comment that the banhammer is too often used for simply disagreeing with certain Ops (Cash or Jvan). El Kabong may well be right that they don’t impose outright link blacklists (with the clear and deserved exception of the Chicago Tribune), and if I got that wrong I apologize. Still, it seems like articles that disagree with the company line never get linked, even when offering valuable information or thoughts regarding the program. Since such articles/blogs tend to be positive, it’s hardly surprising that folks over there don’t see anything “to be happy about.”
I think it got such low ratings because people are reacting with emotion. They’re emoting. His response is reasonable. The challenge is that it doesn’t matter all that much – the editing and agenda-pushing you’re talking about are the bigger issues.
It got such low ratings because he led it off with a lie.
I don’t think the NDN guys are doing something calculated to increase traffic to sell ads. Dont think that’s the case at all. The rest I agree with, and the momentum is just too strong in one direction to change now. They have self-selected into a group that can never see good, never see improvement. It’s sad.
But that’s who they are. I don’t believe for a second they are faking it to make money. That is real. I am not sure which is worse.
Kudos to El K for joining the conversation and for that response. Always been one of the few sane voices over there.
That said, ‘something to be positive about’?
-Top 20ish ranking
-12-3 in past 15 games
-a 1,000 yard rusher
-very few sacks and a much improved OL overall
-solid DL despite key injuries and great recruiting on that front
-improvements in all facets in terms of production, on O and D. STs is at worst a wash with an improved kick return game and a horrible PR game
-8-3 when last year we win 7 games
I could go on forever. How are you seeing nothing good there?
There are improvements to be made and we aren’t there yet, but man there’s a shit ton to be positive about, let alone to be calling for the coach’s head.
NDNationers hate the “Gay Ass Spread”, wants a power-running offense.
They want to hire Bob Stoops or Urban Meyer.
Bob Stoops–offense runs the spread. Notre Dame currently outrushes Oklahoma on a per game basis.
Urban Meyer–runs the spread offense. Ran, because he had a fullback playing QB, but still, it’s a spread.
Ladies and gentlemen, NDNation logic…
What? Do you have to pay alimony to NDNation or something? And what exactly is your beef again? Too many bitter types for your taste?
Really?
The Bob Stoops and Urban Meyer yen were (are) all about self-esteem. There are a bunch of fans whose self-identity is so caught-up in the fortunes of ND football that they needed ND to “make a statement” by hiring a big name. There’s also an aspect of post-hoc reasoning emanating from a certain NDN personality’s hard-on for a certain elsewhere-employed AD who was not hired at ND (presumably, arising from some sort of personal relationship, as there’s nothing in his professional history to make him worthy of that degree of boosterism for the ND job).
Coincidentally, similar post-hoc reasoning appears to accompany any discussion about Kelly. I think NDN (specifically, Rock’s House, Cartier tends to be less crazy) jumped the shark when people were seriously suggesting that it could be a good idea to kick Kelly to the curb to get Urban Meyer. As in, right now.
Ironically, on the basketball side of things, The Pit takes a completely opposite tack with Brey. (And yes, I’ve seen the rationalizations of it. I think they significantly understate the challenges Kelly faced coming in.)
I also want to add that there are countless posts at NDN since BC that have treated Stanford as a loss already – that have literally acted as if the game has already been played and Stanford has won. And not ONE of those posts ever elicited a single reply by someone pointing out that the game had in fact not yet been played, that this ND team had yet to get blown out (ie, thrashed) by anyone all year, or that Stanford isn’t looking too hot themselves lately. Presumably anyone who was inclined to point out such things decided no to do so for fear that they would have abuse hurled at them from fifty different directions – people calling them Kelly-lovers, jt posting one of meaningless, sarcastic “Support the lads!” posts, etc.
Your site is a cesspool, Bonger.
thanks for stating what i have been feeling for weeks. For the past 2 years i have been a paying member of ISD (and loved it). The discussion is balanced for the most part at ISD but when I had to restructure my budget and drop my membership I started to go over to NDN. Nearly every thread seems to be something negative about the program or the coaching staff or the victory from the past weekend. I’m sick of going over there and glad I found this site (HLS).
thanks
I think ND nation is more entertaining than the other sites I’ve tried and often very insightful. Some of the other sites are full of f-bombs and poorly defended arguments. Just because something is positive and optimistic doesn’t mean it is inherently true or more virtuous than anything else. I was in Hong Kong last spring and when they found out I was a big ND fan, they asked if I posted on NDnation. For whatever reason, that’s where they go to follow ND.
I felt that this was a pretty fair documentation of what goes on over there. I’ve rarely posted, but perusing the site always leaves me wondering what planet people are on sometimes.
I guess this also gave me a good laugh because the first time I ever posted on HLS, it recieved a response from MQ asking me if “I knew it because I saw it”. Maybe he thought I was some longtime NDN guy using an alias..well I wasn’t. Just a longtime reader of these sites who rarely posts unless I hop on after a few brews (case in point).
The negativity and lack of perspective flushing the realms of NDN certainly isn’t isolated to the blue and gold though. It’s prevalent in every major school in message boards across the nation. When clearer heads find a place to convene it can be beneficial, so any place that encourages that (like here) is a bonus.
I know this because I saw it.
Big surprise…the thread that had a link to this page from NDN was deleted.
A few points, agreements, and elaborations:
1. I, too, believe the NDN folks have Notre Dame’s best interests at heart. And it goes without saying that they are pushing an agenda that they feel is helping the university and the football program. But they’re very misguided to that end and too blind to see that.
2. Banning posters who disagree with them, encouraging negative feedback from its users, and shouting down optimists have created a diseased forum. At best it is a place for fans to rant. At worst it serves as a laughingstock of our fan base with some of the irrationality in content; makes recruits, the media, and outsiders think that is what a typical Notre Dame fan is like – unreasonable, irrational, cynical, and wholly negative. I ask, what does all that inbred negativity accomplish? It’s not supportive. It’s not bringing Meyer or Stoops (and certainly not if you fire coaches within 3 years as they seem wont to do). It can only be negatively impactful.
3. NDN is the most well known of ND fan sites. I believe people should be allowed to have their own opinions. I just wish, for the sake of our program, it was a more open-minded forum as this one and OFD are, for example.
4. I also do not think they create content to generate hits – I think they actually believe what they post and much of it disappoints and, frankly, scares me.
5. I feel as though opinions there are formed in concrete, then convenient facts are used to try to back those up while contrary ones are thrown out. This, instead of looking at all the facts and then forming an opinion. They obviously do not like Kelly and are using everything they can to try to back those statements up (‘ruining tradition’, sideline demeanor, did you hear what he said in the press conference?). These are more important than the improvements Biscuit listed noted thoroughly above.
6. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a fansite generating so much ire against it by fans of the same team. Does anyone know of one?
7. I just wish any of the operators of the site had some self-reflection – the ability to see how poorly they are representing us as Notre Dame alumni and fans. And to see that their agenda is not being served by the way they run their site.
There’s obviously a lot more to say. I may post more as it comes to me.
I really appreciate what you guys do here at HLS. The opinions certainly don’t align all the time but overall people are well respected and given every opportunity to express those opinions. Keep up the good work.
“6. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of a fansite generating so much ire against it by fans of the same team. Does anyone know of one?”
Every fan base has one. I hang out pretty regularly on EDSBS and everyone there complains about their crazy irrational homer fansites. ND Nation is just by far the “Gold Standard” of how far the crazy can go. I’ve said this before, but they don’t value anything but their own egos over there. They don’t want ND to succeed, they want to be right. They rail against how the “Gay Ass Spread” can’t win football games, despite the fact that since 2003, out of 16 participants in the BCS championship game 9 of them have run variants of the spread ((and 4 of the 8 champions). And that’s not counting Ohio State, who ran spread concepts with Troy Smith to take advantage of his mobility. They don’t want Kelly to succeed because he’s not “their guy”. They think that only a Bob Stoops or an Urban Meyer can make ND a good team again. Why? Why do they pine for a coach with multiple rings, despite the clear realities that no one like that would waste their time with our fanbase (specifically the ND Nation types)?? Why do they ignore the fact that those guys RUN THE SPREAD which they so violently oppose? Because they’ve GIVEN UP on Notre Dame. Only someone like that can possibly save us. Kelly’s too “small-time”, even though he’s got a much bigger profile than either of those two did before taking over big schools.
I like Kelly, but he makes mistakes and not everything he does is perfect. No coach is. Ask Florida fans what they thought of Meyer’s choices last year, as the looked like ass. Ask OU fans what they think when Bob Stoops calls a timeout and gives Baylor a chance to win the game. But of course, you can’t reason with them, because anything that doesn’t fit their warped world view at ND Nation is banned immediately.
Thank you, HLS, and OFD, and UHND, and Keith at NBC, for providing places where rational people can actually support their team and discuss things without the self-loathing and fear of success over at NDNation. The poster up above who said it had it right: they are a cancer. They would rather ND lose than win and not fit their ideas of what it should be (harrumph fullbacks, power running, grit, no jumbotron, black and white television, take trains to games, none of this new fangled planes). They don’t even know what it is they really DO want–try explaining to them that Ara was considered pass-happy during his time. The excuses and logical gymnastics just get better and better over there, trying to explain how 35 runs vs. 25 passes isn’t “balanced”. But the worst thing is that everyone over there is too afraid and in awe of the big names (who happen to be the biggest idiots) that no one can point out that the emperor has no clothes. When they do (hey guys–you know we rush for more yards than Oklahoma, right?) those voices get banned/deleted/shouted down, because it doesn’t fit their fascist, ND must be X, self-loathing mindset.
And don’t even start on the political board….I don’t care what anyone’s personal politics are–what business does that have on a football board? You seriously make ND the laughing stock of the college football blogosphere. Go root for some other team, because you don’t actually root for ND.
I don’t mean to get in a debate, but one of the sites you mentioned as rational is the site I was thinking of when I said its full of f-bombs in the subject line and really crude empty bickering. I was just surprised to see anyone refer to that site as a good example. Fortunately, the internet is a big place and everyone can find the place that suits them or create their own. I miss that blog site called Blue Gray Sky. That was a good one. I have not looked around much recently though. I’ll have to go see what’s out there. To be really honest, I think NDnation is not necessarily the best site for the day to day fan, but I think they do have some valid concerns about the big picture. I keep looking for another site that gets into discussing ND footballt at the leadership level, but on that score, most sites just carp about NDnation in my opinion. Forgetting all the coaches, players and fans for a moment to focus only on the senior leadership, the ND football enterprise has not been particularly well managed for production. It has been managed for marketing. They are lucky to be a non profit with an endowment and a marketable history. If Notre Dame Football (from the AD on up the ranks) were a public company, they’d have been bought out for salvage by now. Kelly may do great and I hope he does, but that still doesn’t mean that competitive excellence hasn’t moved into a second position behind image, entertainment and marketing at Notre Dame. That’s my opinion no matter what site I’m allowed to post it on..
What does an f-bomb or two have to do with someone’s comprehension of facts? If that’s not your taste, then that’s fine, but it has nothing to do with the issues that ND Nation has.
As I do most of the time, I agree with Nate’s comments. Its funny that on this site,we generally agree with one another that the objective facts are true,i.e. that the offense produced better numbers than many years in the past, that it is nice and significant to blow out teams like Navy and Air Force etc.And when we disagree, someone usually posts an argument to back up his view.
What drives me crazy about NDN is their actual stupidity, with the best example being the theme that Kelly has already “proven” that he is a loser and one of the worst coaches of all time. Last week someone posed a question “what if we were 10-1 etc.., and predictably, some guys answered that it wouldn’t change their opinion one bit of what losers Kelly and Tommy are.
I will bet that if we checked back to week 1 and even pre season, many NDN posters would have been saying that Jonas should never see the field.
Finally, my modest proposal for civility and common sense is that we should be required to post under our real names and email addresses and list our occupation.
Its pretty easy to blast anononymously. And for those that think that coaching is so incredibly easy, do they know it pays $1mil and up? Maybe time for an occupation change!
NDN is not a football board. In fact, the football part is not even the oldest part. Football is the most prominent, but there are separate discussion areas for men’s and women’s basketball, baseball, hockey, and other sports.
Politics is a branch-off from the Back Room. They split it off because political discussions were overwhelming everything else in the Back Room, and I think it’s been a smashing success. It remains an interesting place to stop by to get the pulse of the right-wing, though you can’t ever mistake it for a home for balanced discussion (in that sense, it does have something in common with Rock’s House).
I wrote this over at OFD in a comment after the Wake game–fits with the subject here.
“There are those who will never be satisfied, because satisfaction doesn’t exist.
Logic has no effect on them. These are the people who hate Kelly because he runs the spread, yet want to hire Urban Meyer or Bob Stoops, both of whom run spread offenses. They point at Kelly getting angry and say he can’t handle the pressure, when these are the same people who complained that Willingham never showed emotion or got on a player for bad play, and ignore that their St. Lou (don’t get me wrong, I love Lou too) would grab kids by the facemask and put refs in headlocks. They are the same people who get upset when we win by 42 over Navy, a team that had beaten us 3 of 4 years, because we didn’t “run enoughâ€, even though we had 7 rushing touchdowns. They hate Kelly, so they automatically view anything he does as negative.
The thing is, they only think they hate Kelly. What they really hate is Notre Dame, and anything that doesn’t fit their preconception of the way things “should†be. I love Notre Dame. I hate when we lose. I would like to see us win by 42 every week. But I care about the success, not how we get there (within the rules). Pass every freaking down, I don’t care. Run the wishbone, I don’t care. Win the games, you can yell on the sideline or whatever you want. I don’t care. The people above actively WANT ND to fail, and fail, and fail, each time they think that ND has hired a coach that doesn’t fit with what THEY want. They don’t want ND to succeed. They want to be right. They want to say “I told you soâ€. They want their statements like “ND only wins when they have a power running game with fullbacks†and “ND doesn’t need a jumbotron to win†to be correct. They need the validation that comes from being right. They are not fans of Notre Dame. The are fans of themselves. The sad thing is, they are too stupid to realize they can’t have what they want, because it’s a contradiction. Sure, fire Kelly, hire Stoops (never happen, but don’t bother telling them that). Then watch our QB’s throw for 400+ yards a game like Landry Jones and Sam Bradford, and watch THEM complain that we don’t run enough, even if we win 12 games a year, and watch them conveniently ignore that Stoops was THEIR choice. Or sub out Stoops for Meyer, so what. Bottom line, they are best mocked or ignored, and if there was any justice in this world their little corner of the internet would be shut down for stupidity.”
You seem so worked up about a lot of straw men of your own making. Breath. Nobody will complain about the coaching IF we go 12-0. However, you’ve got to understand that people will complain if a coach at Notre Dame styruggles to beat really bad teams. Its just going to happen unless we all decide that beating bad teams by a whisker on our way to another 8-4 season is the new definition greatness.
Maybe you should wait until we actually go 12-0 to see what that whole situation is like rather than speculate on people’s reaction over something that hasn’t happenned in 23 years?
And maybe you should realize that you don’t go 12-0 the next year or two after having Charlie Weis as your coach.
The issue as I see it is that the same coach gets no credit for blowing out similarly ‘bad’ teams. AF, Navy, Maryland, etc. Even great team’s, MNC teams, get ugly Ws in a season. To expect a coach to have a flawless team, or to get Ws that all look pretty in year 2 (or ever really) is a bit much considering the depths from whence BK is digging.
Also, you notice you can write a post, disagreeing with the ideas here? You know where you can’t do that? Hmm….
I made the counter to your point already! Someone said (onNDN) what would your opinion be if we were 10-1, and some of the answers were that it would not change their opinion.
If we went 12-0 the haters would point out that no less than 50 sure interceptions were dropped, and anyway, we didn’t run the ball enough to be true champions.
I’ll take them at their word when they say they want to see ND win in football. But they would be much happier to have their low opinions of Kelly, Swarbrick, and the rest of the administration vindicated.
I use NDN for their link page, nothing more. It’s a nice way to find all the ND posts/articles of the day, and I don’t ever post on or read the boards stuff.
Our new home page format is an attempt to try to get better at that as well, so we hope you’ll consider us as a news source down the line (when we finally get it right)
Just some belated Thanksgiving wishes based on the above, very thoughtful discussion:
(1) As a 4th generation Notre Dame ex-pat, based in France for sixteen years, first let me thank the NDNation guys for having built a web site that does an awful lot of work linking its users to the world of Notre Dame football. I am sure they’re not doing it for the money, and they have certainly provided a service… without which I would most likely never have discovered THIS web site! Which leads to my next point:
(2) Many many thanks to “Her Loyal Sons” for a well-researched, insightful, and informative web site. I completely concur with the positive comments about HLS expressed above. Whoever you guys are, my deepest thanks.
(3) Same goes for “One Foot Down.” Nice job over there. And also to Keith Arnold on the NBC site. You are all the greatest.
As for the thrust of the above discussion – unfortunately, the vast majority of posters above are absolutely correct. Somehow, the inner core on “Rock’s House” have become a clique collectively dominated by overly negative and even virulent viewpoints. Sometimes negativism can happen in life – thank goodness neither our coaches or players or most of our fan base seem to have been overly infected by this regrettable tendency.
So, here’s thanking all of you I mentioned above for everything you’ve done to help me and my boys stay abreast of that one special aspect of Our Lady’s university and family that has always meant a lot to all of us.
Go Irish!
And to our NDNation brethren – hoping you have a swift return from the Dark Side – “there’s good in you, I can feel it!”