Monk had it right.
On 2/5/99, not long after the students (yours truly included) stormed the Main Building to protest the potential of ND joining the Big 10, Monk made this statement. It was true then, it's true now.
"Notre Dame has a distinct identity that is the product of more than a century and a half of institutional independence," Father Malloy said in describing the decision. "As a Catholic university with a national constituency, we believe independence continues to be our best way forward, not just in athletics, but, first and foremost, in fulfillment of our academic aspirations.
"The process of sharing information with the Big Ten and CIC has been of great value to Notre Dame," Father Malloy said. "It encouraged us to consider a variety of issues integral to our pursuit of academic and athletic excellence, as well as to our distinct mission as a Catholic university. We have great respect for both the academic stature and the athletic integrity of the Big Ten universities."
The decision, Father Malloy explained, ultimately hinged on the institutional identity of Notre Dame. "Just as the Universities of Michigan or Wisconsin or Illinois have core identities as the flagship institutions of their states, so Notre Dame has a core identity, and at that core are these characteristics--Catholic, private, independent," he said.
As a Big Ten and CIC member, Father Malloy pointed out, "Notre Dame would be one of only two private universities . . . and the only university with a religious affiliation." Notre Dame also, he said, would be by far the smallest of the affiliated institutions.
The Catholic character of Notre Dame, Father Malloy said, " . . . gives a unique perspective to our educational mission and permeates our campus culture. Our most basic decisions concerning student life, our faculty, our core curriculum, even the fields of scholarship and research in which we aspire to make a significant contribution, all reflect the fact that we are a Catholic university.
"These differences in identity between Notre Dame and the member institutions of the Big Ten are essential, not incidental," Father Malloy said. "They are not qualities that are amenable to change, nor would we change them. Notre Dame always will be Catholic and always will be private. Even in terms of size, we will not become appreciably larger. Given these realities, we have had to ask ourselves the fundamental question, does this core identity of Notre Dame as Catholic, private, and independent seem a match for an association of universities--even a splendid association of great universities--that are uniformly secular, predominantly state institutions and with a long heritage of conference affiliation.
"Our answer to that question, in the final analysis, is no."
HT: Vadbldomer via NDN
By Trey June 10, 2010 - 1:37 pm
I totally agree, but we would be stupid to stubbornly cling to nostalgia at the expense of athletic success. If what is happening continues, and winning a conference title is a prerequisite for entry to a post season playoff, we MUST forego independence to ensure the best interests of the University
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By JVH June 10, 2010 - 1:38 pm
He lost me at ““As a Catholic university with a national constituency, we believe independence continues to be our best way forward, not just in athletics, but, first and foremost, in fulfillment of our academic aspirations.”
Notre Dame is not independent. It’s football team happens to have no conference affiliation, but all it’s other teams are doing just fine in the Big East. Notre Dame fans need to open their minds to conference affiliation for the football team.
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By Rocket89 June 10, 2010 - 1:58 pm
I’m still for independence, and that speech sounds great, but it’s not as convincing ten years later.
We just need to somehow make sure that the 16-team super-conferences do not happen. If they do, it will be tough sledding to stay independent.
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By The Biscuit June 10, 2010 - 2:30 pm
JVH, ND is independent in football, and academically as well. We set our own course and don’t have to answer to anyone. I think the 2nd part is what Monk was focusing on, and I think rightly so.
Rocket, I agree that it will be tough to stay out of the huge super-conferences if they happen, and if that becomes the norm we may need to re-evaluate. But if the Big 10 becomes the Big 12, the Big 12 disappears and the Pac-16 comes to be, I think we’re fine. For now.
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By Mark G June 10, 2010 - 2:53 pm
Teddy Greenstein of the Chicago Tribune said on Tuesday that for Notre Dame, “[t]he academic fit [in the Big 10]is ideal.” That is absurd. Other than Northwestern, there is very little similarity between Notre Dame and the other Big 10 schools academically.
While many of the state schools in the Big 10 haver great academic programs, and the top students at those schools are likely to be as strong academically as students anywhere, those state schools do not have the stength of student or rigor of programs from top to bottom that private schools like ND and Northwestern have.
This is particularly true if the comparison is between the academic rigor and results for student athletes.
For football, ND has a GSR (“graduation success rate”) of 94% and Northwestern has a GSR of 92%. The next highest score in the Big 10 belongs to Penn State, at only 78%, and then Iowa at 75%. No other Big 10 schools meet the NCAA’s announced goal of a 75% graduation success rate. Minnesota and Michigan State have GSRs for football of only 51%, Ohio State has a GSR of only 52% and Purdue and Wisconsin have GSRs of only 63%. Michigan’s GSR is only 70%, the same as for Illinois. The average for the Big 10, excluding Northwestern, is only 64%.
It should be an embarrassment to the league that 1 in 3 football players who hang around its schools long enough to use up their eligibility (and scholarships) do not get a degree. Since the Big 10 is a sports league, not an academic consortium, I think that the evidence shows that the Big 10 is not an ideal academic fit for ND (or for Northwestern for that matter). There may be good reasons for ND to join the league, but academics is not one of them.
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By Pat June 10, 2010 - 3:37 pm
Okay, I completely respect all of that. But put a giant asterisk next to all of that saying, “Unless this model is no longer viable athletically (because who are we kidding? – as much as we expound on the virtues of academics, Notre Dame football is still the biggest game in town) and there is two to three times as much money to be made elsewhere.”
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By The Biscuit June 10, 2010 - 4:07 pm
hmmm, i agree and disagree. I agree with the first part around the model no longer being viable athletically. if we literally cant play anyone anymore, being indie doesnt work.
your 2nd point makes me want to puke – if you’re making 15,20, 30 million a year, do you really need 30, 40, 60? (and by the way, the increase may not be anything close to that – we dont know). when your endowment is well over $5 BILLION, is that really that important? at some point, it just doesnt matter. the money argument hasnt and never will hold for me. we make a lot on football, we’ll keep making a lot. joining a conference wont change that. there might be some more out there, but why do we really care? your first point is valid, the 2nd not so much.
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By borromini June 10, 2010 - 4:32 pm
JVH, even though Malloy’s quote was from 1999 and therefore they were completely independent, it doesn’t change the fact that when it comes to football…you are allowed to maintain the uniqueness of Independence because it was through football…specifically the boycott of football by the B10 that gave us our national identity via playing everyone else in the country.
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By Pat June 10, 2010 - 4:34 pm
Viability and money go hand in hand though — assuming Notre Dame wants to compete at the highest levels and Notre Dame does.
Short answer to, if you have 15, 20 or 30 mil, do you want 30, 40 or 60? Yes. The endowment is not a credit card for subsidizing the football program; rather the football program MAKES money for academics and improvements to the school. In this sense, the football program making as much money as possible is a huge positive.
Independence is desirous for all the reasons Fr. Malloy points out above AND because the money has been right. I’m not saying we have to worship at the alter of the Federal Reserve note, but let’s also not kid ourselves about the importance of cold, hard cash.
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By Pat June 10, 2010 - 4:35 pm
*altar
And sorry if that makes you need a doggie bag.
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By The Biscuit June 10, 2010 - 4:53 pm
if we’re no longer viable as an indie, of course there are money issues. but, if the landscape doesnt go that way and we can remain viable, it doesnt necessarily mean that we should just go wherever the biggest checks are written. and i disagree heartily (i wont puke this time) that that extra 15-20 million matters all that much (and, i think that’s assuming a LOT – it could be much, much less when the dust settles) – the reason it doesnt matter that much is 1) the endowment is ginormous. you’re right that the endowment doesnt mean we dont have to manage our revenues, but it gives us a luxury few other institutions have today – a backup plan and flexibility and 2) 10-20MM (again, it could be more like 3-5MM) isnt all that huge when it comes to our overall budget and financial abilities. yes, if all else is equal i’d rather have more money. but no way would i sell our indie status for it.
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By Pat June 11, 2010 - 8:14 am
I’m with you most of the way. If the difference is only a rounding error, I agree, no reason to even consider changing from independent status. But if the earnings potential is as much as TWICE as much? I don’t care how big the endowment currently is (again, different pot of money), $10-20 mil PER YEAR is nothing to shake a stick at.
I think what Monk said above was certainly right, especially in the time and place it was said. But it’s not absolute. It may continue to be right. But, also, it may not.
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By Rocket89 June 11, 2010 - 10:31 am
I really wonder what the difference is between Notre Dame and the Big Ten schools in terms of revenue.
Maybe they’ll continue to earn a little more from expansion and through the BTN and stuff like that. But it’s hard to imagine them really making a significant amount more than they already are.
On the flip side, we don’t know how much Notre Dame makes. No one’s really sure how much the NBC contract is for. If Forbes estimates that we’re the second and sometimes first wealthiest program, then we must be making a substantial more profit than a school like Ohio State who has 10x the mouths to feed and people to pay.
I think it was mentioned in the most recent Forbes rankings, that ND doesn’t have stadium advertisements, and if they did it would bring in millions.
Money just doesn’t seem to be an issue. Is there any way to know the figures of merchandise sales? I have to believe that Notre Dame is still blowing away every other school in that department. There just seems to be so many more revenue streams that Notre Dame still rake in millions with (Merchandise & Licensing fees most importantly).
And we’re still doing this despite the worst 12-15 year stretch in school history. We may look back on this and know the 2005-2015 period was the high water mark for Big Ten revenue generation and ask ourselves if it was really worth the extra $8 million or whatever.
It’s a complicated issue and money is just one part, but I think it’s pretty far back on the school’s prioroty list right.
Has lack of money prevented Notre Dame from fielding a winning team? And will it in the future?
The answer is almost assuredly, no.
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By The Biscuit June 11, 2010 - 11:24 am
Rocket, I agree. I don’t buy a lot of the Televen estimates, as no one has confirmed them, but even if it’s $22M/school, I dont think that’s significantly more than ND gets from NBC. Maybe a couple mil. And that’s TODAY. As you note, things can change. If the Televen has a channel, why can’t ND? Launching a cable net is difficult, but with the cooperation of the BE to get their non-rev sports and hoops on there, it could be viable (assuming there still is a BE). So there are lots of ways that going with the B10 could, maybe, HURT ND revenue-wise in the long-run. We dont have all the numbers so we dont know, but I dont think the gap today is all that big. And when Kelly takes us to 10-2 this year, followed by 11-1 and 12-0 seasons, things could look a lot different anyway. ND could be pulling in way more than $22M at that point. The differences don’t appear to be big enough to warrant making $ a key reason for change. It’s maybe one tiny factor far down a list, but I think it’s tiny.
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By Bubba Du Lac June 11, 2010 - 1:37 pm
So you think a manifesto created 11+ years ago by the same person who allowed Bob Davie and Tyrone Willingham to be hired to guide our glorious football team into oblivion is relevant? Things change…
Being part of a conference will not change the identity of the University.
As for traditions, I say it’s about time we create some new ones. The thought of playing Ohio State, Penn State, and Michigan on an annual basis (along with USC) is very enticing. Sure beats Western Michigan, Tulsa, and Nevada!
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By The Biscuit June 11, 2010 - 2:14 pm
Bubba, I can appreciate the perspective, but I do think it applies. Monk’s vision was for the school, not for football. I agree his hiring/firing decisions sucked, but that doesnt mean all he did was bad. This statement was a good thing. And yes, as things stand today, it applies. It could change, but right now I think it does.
And using this year as a scheduling example is bunk. I could just as easily point 2 years out when we will have the #1 SOS in the country with OK, etc on the sked and say that we shouldnt give that up. Skeds go from good to bad to good to great and back again. One year means little (but agree, it’s a crappy year).
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By borromini June 12, 2010 - 12:55 pm
“Being part of a conference will not change the identity of the University.”
Wrong…
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