"Abilities" now a good fit for never writing again.
I link to this crap so you can go and comment and rip him apart. Have at it.
Where to begin? Where to begin?
Let's start here: Mr Haugh, you have no idea what Notre Dame is, what it means, and how it operates. Okay, given that we've now completely disqualified you from commenting on the topic, let's check out a few specifics.
Let's start with this gem:
"Don't make the Big Ten wait because Delany won't."
Dude, the Big Televen has been waiting on ND since my freshman year (and that was a while ago). Didn't happen then, ain't gonna happen now. They're not gonna wait? Are you kidding me? If they add another program now to even it up, and then 10 minutes later we say 'hey, can we join?', the Tweleven would probably boot the new kid out and make space for us. You're nuts to think that the conference wouldnt let ND in. Pretty much any time. That's not arrogance, that's just fact. ND as a member is worth more to them than you can even imagine. And it's worth less to ND than you can ever imagine.
You even state this same opinion:
With due respect to Missouri, Pittsburgh and Rutgers, no potential additional member benefits the Big Ten more than Notre Dame
So, let me get this straight: ND should hurry up because the Televen won't wait for us, but ND has all the power because there's no one else that will help the conference more than ND. Hmmmm, yes, quite logical...
Next...
The Notre Dame that Swarbrick and other idealists describe is a place where no coach could have resisted the chance to walk the same sideline Rockne and Leahy and Parseghian walked. But it hasn't been that place since Davie and Willingham and Weis walked there too. That's the point.
Wrong. The people that really know Notre Dame know that not all coaches would just drop everything to take the job. Especially top-tier coaches in good situations with a lot of success. Tell me my man, how often do top-tier big program coaches that are winning leave to go somewhere else to start over? Ummm, never? That's right. This has nothing to do with ND not being a top job. It's clearly one of the top CFB jobs in the country (if you consider money, exposure, ability to get talent and tradition as key criteria). It's not THE ONLY really good job, and it's probably not the best when you talk about lifestyle (the way-over-considered weather angle - half the programs in the country are in cold weather climates - and the need to recruit nationally) and scrutiny, but it's certainly a top job. You and other media guys that 'know' things love to ascribe to "Notre Dame" that we all think that our coaching job is so much better than everyone else's. The reality is that we know we have a special place, and that there are parts of ND that make the job super attractive to some people, and really not interesting to others. For example, Urban Meyer can't play gang members at ND and can't have his entire team in jail at ND and get away with it. Hence, it's not that attractive to him. The truth is somewhere in the middle. ND is a top job, but not the end-all-be-all of coaching for all people. For some it is, but for others it's not. Most fans know this, and are fine with it. Just because non-fans say that we believe this fallacy of ND being the dream job of every coach that's ever been born, doesn't mean that we do.
University leaders need to learn from the lesson of hiring Kelly and let it guide them in deciding whether to pursue Big Ten membership. Out with self-aggrandizement, in with self-awareness.
And this is where you go way wrong. I mean, could you understand ND any less? Being independent is a matter of pride and tradition at Notre Dame, yes. Can't dispute it. But saying it's all about self-aggrandizement at the expense of awareness is just a cheap shot. (You stink and your skin is pimply too, so there!) Do you have any clue about how ND operates? Its mission? Its values? ND remaining independent is core to the identity of the SCHOOL. The institution. Not just the football program. Joining the Big 10 doesn't just compromise a long-standing tradition of independence in football, it compromises the ability of the school and institution to fulfill its mission. I know you don't get this, you pretty much can't.
And then you make the leap that fully proves that you literally have NO IDEA WHAT YOU'RE FREAKING TALKING ABOUT!
Don't kid yourself. This is solely a football argument.
Dude, you literally have no clue. How you're not working in the mail room is beyond me.
The reason ND was considering joining the conference in the late 90's was because of ACADEMICS. Resources, consortiums, etc. The reason ND didn't join was because of FOOTBALL (and all the alums and students, etc that wanted to maintain that independent identity). This is in no way solely a football argument. ND's football program is extremely important to the identity of the school, but it is NOT the school.
The independence argument is both a football and non-football one. In the 90's, it was the non-football side that caused the flirtation, and the football side won out. Today, both sides are anti-Big-Televen. Sorry man, it just ain't happening when all sides are aligned.
And your assertion that a 'philosophical line' has been crossed is just as full of bunk as the rest of your article. ND belongs to the Big East in name only. The school isn't a formal member of the conference. We just get to hop in and join them for non-football sports. The alliance doesn't really go beyond that. There are no other ties. Did you seriously do any research for this article?
A key thing Notre Dame must consider: Realistically, the Irish could gain easier access to the Bowl Championship Series games as a member of the Big Ten than as an independent.
So if we completely ignore the entire identity and mission of the school, and just look at football, as you start to do here, your argument still falls flat. First, your statement above is hardly fact. ND has a sweet BCS deal right now. A highly ranked 2 or even 3-loss ND team can still qualify for a BCS game. Without winning a conference, there's literally NO guarantee like that with the Televen. How does that make it easier? I don't get it. If ND comes into November with 2 losses as a conference member, we're probably behind 1-2 teams in the pecking order, which likely leaves us out. In a conference of one, we're in. Can you do that math?
And your motivation for this need to affiliate is that we'd then have a conference championship to play for mid-season when we have 2 losses? Two things on that. 1) You assume that ND's subpar record of late is because a 2-loss team, mid-season, has nothing to play for. ARE YOU ON CRACK? HAVE YOU EVER HEARD OF BCS BOWLS? OR MAYBE HOW ABOUT JUST WANTING TO WIN? OR EVEN BASE PRIDE???? There are plenty of things to play for at that point. Just because recent teams (and their coaches) haven't performed later in the year, doesn't mean this is an institutional issue. It means we needed a new coach. Check. 2) What's the message sent, if we make this move for this reason? "Eh, we give up on being a school that aims for BCS Bowls and MNCs. We're just aiming for a nice Conference Championship to settle for"? That's just weak. That's about as anthithetical to ND as atheism. ND stakeholders, regardless of the realism in today's world, aim for something higher. We push for that higher goal. Yeah, it'd be easier to win with no restrictions. We want to win with them. Doesn't make it easier, but making it EASIER isn't the point. Doing it in the right way IS the point.
But you'd have no clue. You went to Ball State.
By Josh December 18, 2009 - 2:31 pm
Haugh’s just a troll that works for a newspaper and likes to rile up ND fans. He’s been that way since he worked for the South Bend Trib.
Thumbs Up/Down:
0 
0
By Pat December 18, 2009 - 4:21 pm
Could you please explain how the mission of the school would be compromised by joining the Big Ten?
Thumbs Up/Down:
0 
0
By The Biscuit December 18, 2009 - 4:33 pm
Pat, that’s a long and nuanced discussion. In short, ND’s identity is tied to its Catholic mission in higher education. It wouldn’t be IMPOSSIBLE to deliver on that mission as part of the Big Ten conference. But formal conference affiliation (which I understand to be different from our relationship with the Big East) results in ties that go much further than football or just sports. And in the long run, those ties could make it more difficult for ND to operate in the way needed to remain true to that identity and serve that mission. Maybe not, but I think it’d be tougher.
Additionally, tying ND to a region rather than remaining a truly national presence would also have an impact. From recruiting for the football and other sports programs to recruiting for the best and brightest ND can attract, being a national institution (trying to be global, but struggling thus far) is a differentiator for Notre Dame. National press, national alums, national recruiting, students from all over, etc. It adds to the knowledge base, the learning and the prestige. And national = bigger than regional, in many ways. Reach, influence, whatever.
So those are my thoughts in a really quick nut-shell. If we joined the Big 10 tomorrow, I dont think we’d see much change. But it could lead down a path that would make it harder for ND to serve the mission, and could regionalize a national presence. That’d suck.
Thumbs Up/Down:
0 
0
By Mark G December 18, 2009 - 4:42 pm
I saw this article this am on the train, and had the same reaction. Was he trying to say that we had to settle for Brian Kelly because we are independent? Is he saying we would have been able to land Stoops or Meyer if we were a member of the Big Eleven? Absurd.
The academic consortium attraction to the Big Eleven is actually a lot less important to the faculty now than it was a few years ago. Ah, the wonders of the internet!
Thumbs Up/Down:
0 
0
By Pat December 18, 2009 - 5:06 pm
Thanks for the response.
I don’t think Notre Dame should join the Big Ten either, but I guess my view is a bit more basic: the football program operates perfectly well in its currently and traditionally independent format. And our recent troubles on the field don’t, in my opinion, have anything to do with not having a conference affiliation.
While trying to avoid any long and drawn out discussions, I have to say your answer wasn’t convincing. After reading Notre Dame’s mission statement which outlines that the school be, very much paraphrased, a place of higher learning that is distinctly Catholic, if there is something about Big Ten membership that directly impacts this possibility, I would expect you to immediately underline this point. If, however, this is untrue — for example, there are no Big Ten membership requirements that education be wholly ‘secular’ or something of this nature — then I ask that you consider the weight of your charge. I say this not in any special defense of the Big Ten, but only because the rationalization, firstly, seems quite plausibly made up out of whole cloth and, secondly, just plainly off putting — a form of self-aggrandizement, if you will. Also, without saying all Catholic universities are alike, I’m not sure those that have conference affiliations have done so at the expense of their souls.
Thumbs Up/Down:
0 
0
By Craig December 18, 2009 - 6:04 pm
There are definitely some sports where we’d do just as well or even better in the Integer than we do now in the Big East. Soccer on both sides is probably close to a wash, volleyball is *clearly* better in the Integer (in fact, we’d have to seriously upgrade our play to avoid being in the bottom two or three every year).
The real issue is football, which is definitely better off (at this point) remaining independent.
Thumbs Up/Down:
0 
0
By Nate December 20, 2009 - 11:23 am
Pat:
I don’t necessarily think there is anything specific about joining a CONFERENCE per se that is in conflict with ND’s Catholic identity. HOWEVER, I do think joining the BIG TEN would be a huge mistake and a blemish on the school’s Catholic nature.
Decades ago, very early in the last century, ND tried to join the Big 10, and was rejected on the basis of being a Catholic University. Michigan refused to schedule ND because of the bigotry of its head coaches. The main reason Michigan State became a consistent rival was they were one of the few Big 10 schools (Purdue was another, I think) that refused to be bullied by Michigan into not playing us. I say this as a non-Catholic (I’m Episcopalian) who is however extremely proud of the heritage of Notre Dame–joining the Big 10 is a slap in the face of to ND’s Catholic heritage and the slights endured in the past.
Additionally, somewhere in the Blogosphere I was reading that when ND looked at joining the Big 10 in the late 90′s, Ara Parseghian had a talk with Mike Wadsworth, the AD, and imparted some advice. The Big 10 is 10 large state schools and one private school, Northwestern. From Ara’s time at Northwestern, he was familiar with being on the wrong end of 9-1 votes. Keep in mind that the conference isn’t just football or even sports; it’s an academic and institutional thing. ND would very likely be on the wrong end of a lot of 10-2 votes, and forced to take action in an array of things against the wishes and ideals of the University. Why give up any control to any outside organization when it isn’t necessary? THAT is I believe what The Biscuit refers to. Who KNOWS what decision there could be in the future, and where it could lead? ND currently has total control of everything it chooses to do. There is no reason to give that up.
Thumbs Up/Down:
0 
0
By The Biscuit December 20, 2009 - 9:36 pm
Pat, I don’t pretend to know where and how it would definitely have an impact in making that mission do-able (or not). I don’t run the school. But I do know that, as Nate said, we’d often be put in the position where we would not have control. There are a lot of things beyond football/sports that would change and over which ND would no longer have sole control. I’m not going to post what all of those are, because I don’t know all of them, but there are a bunch of things (like Nate mentioned) in and around academics, research, etc where ND would be a single vote among 12. Why go from being 1 vote of 1 to 1 vote of 12 without a clear and overwhelming need to do so? If we HAD to join a conference to survive, okay. But why would we choose that? That lack of control inherently threatens the identity and the mission, as it’s extremely unlikely that the other 11 (huge, often state) schools would have the same position as our small, catholic, private institution. NDNation has a good post that outlines a few specific reasons too. It’s a good read.
Thumbs Up/Down:
0 
0
By Pat December 21, 2009 - 2:56 pm
Truthfully, I thought you did know, and I asked the question in earnest. It sure sounds like you knew: “Joining the Big 10 doesn’t just compromise a long-standing tradition of independence in football, it compromises the ability of the school and institution to fulfill its mission. I know you don’t get this, you pretty much can’t.”
Naturally, joining an athletic conference would require the relinquishing of certain institutional controls: scheduling and bowl obligations, for instance– things we actually currently have in principle with the Big East for football (not mention most all other sports). Because I think Notre Dame Football is completely viable as an independent, and I appreciate total control — scheduling, exclusive TV deals, revenue, etc. — I say again, I advocate Notre Dame remain an independent. However, I simply don’t comprehend, and apparently neither do you, nor can you show any proof, that the mere act of joining a conference would inhibit the university’s mission. Merely suggesting Notre Dame could be on the wrong end of a few 10-2 votes in an ATHLETIC conference provides no actual evidence Notre Dame’s mission would be jeopardized. While I agree in principle that Notre Dame should stay out of the Big Ten and there’s a lot of good reasons they should not join, protecting ND’s mission does not seem to be one of them. Frankly, what I hear here is an argument based solely on Notre Dame exceptionalism — and Notre Dame is exceptional in many ways — but here the argument simply seems, with all due respect, unfounded.
Thumbs Up/Down:
0 
0
By The Biscuit December 21, 2009 - 3:51 pm
Pat, I am okay with not swaying you. I honestly don’t have the time or the inclination to dig up the ‘proof’ you desire. But I can say that a conference affiliation goes well, well beyond just athletics. You keep going back to bowl decisions and stuff like that, but joining the Big Ten isn’t a football or sports decision. It’s a school decision. And really, my point here is to call in question what a Ball State and NW grad knows (or doesn’t know) about ND. How about you look to him for some proof for his position? If, through this exchange, you somehow start to question his positions/research as much as you’re questioning an alum bloggers perspective, I’ll be happy.
Thumbs Up/Down:
0 
0
By Pat December 21, 2009 - 4:35 pm
And I don’t expect you to do a research project on the topic, it’s just that, with all due respect, you made it seem entirely self evident that Notre Dame’s mission could be compromised — a serious charge, indeed — when it seems, in fact, it’s not at all self evident, if even true at all.
To your last point, as I’ve alluded to, I’m much closer to your point of view as far as conference affiliations. It was only on that single point that I sought further clarification.
Thumbs Up/Down:
0 
0
By The Biscuit December 21, 2009 - 8:14 pm
I hear you. But I find it to be entirely self-evident, still. And very, very true. Glad you’re on the right side of the fence, even if you don’t necessarily buy what I’m selling.
Thumbs Up/Down:
0 
0
By Trey December 21, 2009 - 9:09 pm
I just dont see the reason to get all worked up about this idiot. I wouldnt have linked him, youre just feeding the troll that way. The ‘ND needs to join a conf’ garbage is just like the ‘ND cant compete with recruits’ ‘ND is too cold’ ‘ND is irrelevant’ garbage. Ive just gotten use to the talk and unless someone says something totally putlandish, i just ignore it. This guy didnt say anything we havent heard thousands of times already now.
Thumbs Up/Down:
0 
0
By Pat December 21, 2009 - 9:12 pm
Well, you’re certainly entitled to that view. The argument you’ve presented, however, is preposterous; something isn’t self evident and true just because you claim it to be so.
Thumbs Up/Down:
0 
0
By The Biscuit December 22, 2009 - 10:27 am
Pat, it’s less preposterous than Haugh’s position, if only because I have some intimate knowledge of ND and he has none. Can we agree on that?
Thumbs Up/Down:
0 
0
By The Biscuit December 22, 2009 - 10:28 am
Trey, getting worked up is what I do. It’s fun for me. If there weren’t idiots in the world like this guy, what would I write about?
Thumbs Up/Down:
0 
0
By Trey December 22, 2009 - 3:08 pm
Theres always domer…
Thumbs Up/Down:
0 
0
By Her Loyal Sons » Swarbrick is Angering Me. Jack, Stop Being Weak. March 11, 2010 - 1:14 pm
[...] ripped a columnist a new one a while back about this, and that pretty much sums up my thoughts on it a lot. The crux of my [...]
Thumbs Up/Down:
0 
0
By Dan March 14, 2010 - 4:39 am
Pat:
If you’re looking for a specific example of how joining the Big 10 would seriously hinder Notre Dame’s ability to carry out its mission, look at the American Association of Universities. The Big 10 does not technically require all of its schools to be members of the AAU, but it is STRONGLY preferred. Indeed, all current Big 10 members are also part of the AAU, and all but Purdue joined shortly after joining the conference. The AAU is a research organization that is heavily involved with embryonic stem-cell research, which I’m sure I don’t have to say twice is not something Notre Dame looks kindly upon. There is not a chance in the world ND joins the AAU, so if they feel as though they will be pressured to join, I can’t see ND becoming the 12th member of the Big 10.
Thumbs Up/Down:
0 
0