But that doesn't stop Brian Cook of Mgoblog infamy. I was mostly just going to ignore this whole "Jim Harbaugh vs. Carr/Hart" thing. It's sort of like watching redneck cousin-brothers duke it out. Funny, but not all that compelling. But then Brian decided to defend the pathetic "herding" of Michigan Football Players into specific, "easy" majors by yelling, "But! But! Notre Dame does it too!"
Um, no.
Go ahead and read his little defense of Michigan if you wish. Anyone else feel like you're reading a vindictive version of David Sedaris?
Here's the "But ND Does It Too!" part:
There is no difference between Michigan and anyone else on this issue. Penn State and Notre Dame both have reputations for being very serious about their academics for football programs that aspire to something higher than being Rice, but even these two schools cluster kids like mad. A survey of Penn State's majors lifted from Anison on the Wolverine.com's message boards:
Total = 86
Declared Majors = 40
Kinesiology = 10
Parks Recreation & Tourism Mgmt = 10
Labor & Industrial Relations = 4
Crime, Law and Justice = 3
Finance = 3
Economics = 2
Mechanical Engin = 2
Marketing = 2
Rehabilitation Svcs = 1
Psychology = 1
Environment Systems Engin = 1
Letters, Arts & Sciences = 1
Management = 1
Advertising & PR = 1Half of PSU declared majors are in Kinesiology or Parks, Recreation, & Tourism Management. I went over to Notre Dame's website and surveyed their announced majors:
Sociology: 10
Finance: 6
Film, Television, And Theater: 5
Management: 4
History: 4
Business: 3
Mechanical Engineering: 3
Accounting: 2
Marketing: 2
One each: American Studies, Math, Poli Sci, Bio, Psych.The Math, Bio, Poli Sci, and American culture majors, along with two of the MEs and two of the History majors, are walk-ons. Bolded majors are in the Mendoza School of business; 14 others are enrolled in that school but have not declared majors. With freshmen all enrolled in "first year studies," this means that about half the team is in the Mendoza School of business. To be fair, Mendoza is a large school that comprises about 18% of the undergraduate population at Notre Dame, but a randomly selected football player is three times more likely to be enrolled in Mendoza than a non-football player. There's also ND football players' inexplicable love of sociology to grapple with, and even amongst obvious joke majors "Film, Television and Theater" stands out as a particularly embarrassing thing to have on a degree. All told, there are four declared majors at ND that are not one of these three things. Maybe Michigan's big problem is that it didn't name "General Studies" the "Rocket Science, Law-Talkin', And Doctor-Bein'" degree.
Ok. A few problems here:
- I'm not sure where Brian is getting his numbers. I just went to "Notre Dame's Website" (I assume he means UND.com, the official Notre Dame Athletics Website), and did my own survey of all majors for Notre Dame Football Players. You can view the results here. Some contradictions from Brian's data have emerged. So where did Brian get his data? I notice he didn't cite any sources via a convenient link.
- Brian found 6 Finance majors. I've found 4.
- Brian found 10 Sociology majors. I've found 5.
- Brian found 5 Film Theatre and TV majors. I've found 4.
- Brian found 4 Management majors. I've found 2.
- Brian found 4 History majors. I've found 3.
- Brian found 3 so-called "Business Majors." I presume he means players who are indicated as enrolled in the College of Business Admin., but have no indicated specialty. Aside from Sophomores (more on this in a bit), I've found 4.
- Brian found 2 Marketing majors. I didn't find any.
- According to the Mendoza College of Business website, there are 1,552 ND undergrads enrolled in COBA. That's out of about 8,000+ undergrads attending ND. That's about 19% of all undergrads studying "business." Looking at UND's numbers, there are 24 football players, or about 24% of the team's roster, studying "business." I don't think the difference between the general undergraduate population and ND's football team should raise any flags at all. Besides, it's not like 24% of the team is jumping into something called "Kinesiology."
- Brian states "Bolded majors are in the Mendoza School of business; 14 others are enrolled in that school but have not declared majors. With freshmen all enrolled in "first year studies," this means that about half the team is in the Mendoza School of business." First, I've counted 16 in the College of Business Administration that don't have an indicated specialty within the college. Also, if you take the 98 players on the roster according to UND.com (not counting Hand), subtract the 18 freshmen, then consider the total people in "COBA" (declared an undeclared), you get 24 out of 80 non-freshman football players studying some discipline of business. So when Brian stated "a randomly selected football player is three times more likely to be enrolled in Mendoza than a non-football player," he was simply wrong. 24 of 98 is not "half." And, amazingly, Brian, 24 of 80 is also not "half."
- According the UND.com, only 5, not 10, players are studying Sociology. So much for that "inexplicable love of sociology to grapple with." And even at 10, that would only be 12% of all non first year students. That's still a far cry from the 61% of all declared majors who picked "General Studies" at Michigan.
- Brian seems a little confused about what "First Year of Studies" actually is. Here's a hint: First Year of Studies is the curriculum that all freshmen at Notre Dame study. Brian's mention of First Year of Studies in his post is ambiguous with regard to whether or not he understands that it's not part of COBA.
- I can't remember for sure, but, having graduated from COBA, I seem to remember not actually getting to pick a "major" until the middle of Sophomore year because all of the "introductory" business classes were essentially the same for all 1st semester business majors anyway. I'm not sure Brian understands this or has picked up on why most of the "undeclared" COBA majors on the football team are 1st semester sophomores this season. This may be the case for the "undeclared" A&L football players as well.
- Brian says, "The Math, Bio, Poli Sci, and American culture majors, along with two of the MEs and two of the History majors, are walk-ons." Hrm. According to the UND.com numbers, the 2 Poli Sci majors are David Bruton and Leonard Gordon. Someone should tell Charlie he's saved himself 2 schollies.
Anyway, if we're to believe UND.com's numbers (and why wouldn't we?), Brian's way off in considering Notre Dame and Michigan "peers." In fact, ND and Michigan are two polar opposites in the world of the "student-athlete" within the context of football programs.
The problem, overall, with Brian's defense (aside from being factually incorrect) is that he's a zealot, and, like so many other zealots, he can't see any truths behind any facts that contradict what he chooses to believe. And, because he's "always been very, very "smart"," or, at least believes himself to be so, he can't understand how his "intellect" is being defeated by his own fanaticism and making him blind to reality. And don't think I don't realize the whole pot/kettle thing here. I'm a fan, or a fanatic, of Notre Dame Football, but I at least have some inkling of my inability to maintain impartiality.
I wont even bother getting started about Michigan Football's absolutely criminal graduation rates for African Americans.
Oh, and about that headline...
By JVH August 12, 2007 - 8:19 am
This is a great post, MQ. Well done.
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By Adam August 12, 2007 - 9:55 am
Strong work. I hope you’ll consider publishing a link to this on Cook’s website.
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By domer.mq August 12, 2007 - 11:32 am
Thanks, JVH and Adam.
That’s a good idea, Adam. I’m gonna go do that right now.
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By Sean August 12, 2007 - 2:31 pm
Excellent work. I wrote an article exposing the faulty math, but never thought to verify the accuracy of the underlying data.
Man I ahte that guy.
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By David August 12, 2007 - 2:59 pm
This post is really inflammatory.
Your claim: “Brian found 10 Sociology majors. I’ve found 5″ and “only 5, not 10, players are studying Sociology.”
First of all, major areas of study, unless in the case of foreign languages, are not generally capitalized. But I digress.
Your analysis of sociology (notice the lower-case “s”) majors is not rigorous, is skewed, and is incomplete. The rest of your post, I’m sure, is also biased, but it’s not worth my time to check it.
(1) David Bruton majors in sociology as well political science. He is omitted from your count of sociology majors even though Justin Brown, who studies sociology and FTT, is included.
(2) Derrell Hand majors in sociology. I know he’s been suspended from the team, but omitting him in your spreadsheet reeks of bias. In a study of academic majors, he is relevant.
(3) Trevor Laws was a sociology and business major. You only include him as “GRAD.”
(4) Tom Zbikowski — majored in sociology and computer applications. You only include him as “GRAD.”
(5) Kevin Washington majors in sociology as well as FTT. You only include him as FTT. He should be included your count if Justin Brown is.
Source: http://www.fansonly.com/photos/schools/nd/sports/m-footbl/auto_pdf/07fbguideplayers.pdf
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By domer.mq August 12, 2007 - 3:12 pm
David,
Even by your count, the claims on the MGoBlog post are wrong. Even if I accept that there are 10 sociology majors, and there aren’t, because, as you’ve noted, at least 2 of them are now grad students, the claim that there’s an “inexplicable love of sociology to grapple with” is simply wrong. And it was clearly made to divert attention from the inexplicable love of general studies among Michigan Football Players.
As for the capitalization issue, bite me.
I’ll accept that there may be some issues with my analysis, but my data and analysis weren’t purposely skewed to hide facts. MGoBlog has clearly skewed the truth to create a false argument that amounts to “But everyone else does it, so that makes it ok.” And that’s why you’re Michigan.
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By bgr August 12, 2007 - 4:37 pm
David,
I once heard a psychology lecture in which the psychologist said that one of the classic tactics of people in denial is that they try to refocus the issue on some pedantic and trivial point to accuse the other person of “getting it wrong” all in an effort to divert attention from the gigantic elephant sitting in their own living room.
But I digress…
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By bgr August 12, 2007 - 4:48 pm
Hit the submit button too soon..
It would be something like this:
mq: David, there’s an elephant in your living room taking huge dumps on your carpet
David: you’re misconstruing it. their dumps are no larger than the normal elephant.
mq: ok, but you still have an elephant dumping in your living room
David: who are you to talk? you haven’t dusted your piano in 2 weeks!
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By domer.mq August 12, 2007 - 5:31 pm
bgr,
Love the skit. I invite David over for some beers, and we can act it out. David, any time you wish to discuss this further, let me know. Just don’t get angry when I start smirking a lot and rolling my eyes. You’re a bit like the guys who get pissed when someone says, “the moon reflects light from the sun.”
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By brad August 12, 2007 - 7:22 pm
Domer,
Speaking of someone who is very smart but is “being defeated by his own fanaticism” and has become “blind to reality”, you should note that the entire post you are refering to was directed at Stanford University and its football coach, Jim Harbaugh.
The reference to your fine institution was not remotely essential to the point being made, as the reference to Stanford’s own list of majors for football players says it all. ND appears to have been included in the discussion in a complimentary fashion in order to highlight how they also manage to live in the narrow overlap between being a top flight academic institution and a college that has a consistently excellent football program.
So, between wedging yourself into a conversation that you are not really a part of and being absolutely shocked that Notre Dame could possibly be compared academically to Michigan, you could at least say, “Hey Brian, thanks for the shout-out re: our ‘reputation for being very serious about (our) academics…’”
Furthermore, even after leaping into the fray, you missed the point completely. The sole reason for, and point of the post, was quite apparently that it does not matter all that much which major or concentration of study a football player decides to take on in school, because the life lessons and skill sets learned from being part of an organized and competitive team which strives to become better and reach impossibly high goals are far more valuable for the future of an average football player than the subtleties of integrals, computer programming or 12 page papers on the rhetoric of the Russian government in the early years of Soviet Union.
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By Huss August 12, 2007 - 7:31 pm
brad, beautiful.
Now let’s see these wonderfully ignorant Domers retort those little facts. “Hmm..good point…that article really did have NOTHING to do with knocking NDs academic standards…it appears I decided to respond with such hilariously skewed rhetoric and the only conclusion I can draw from it is that we Domers are self-infatuated douchebags.”
It’s almost funny trying to watch one of them step up to the plate against our Jesus reincarnate(Brian). They just end up looking incredibly foolish for missing the point completely, and come to the realization that they’re still the dumbest damn fans in the land.
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By domer.mq August 12, 2007 - 7:35 pm
Brad,
I got the point of the MGoBlog post. Brian dragged ND into this. I’m questioning that decision. Like I said, I wanted to just ignore it all, but Brian started to equate ND’s practices with Michigan’s, and to call them equal is completely false. Brian tried to say “other excellent institutions do it, so what’s the big deal?” My response is that ND does not partake in this practice of herding, especially into “majors,” like “General Studies.” Do not try and pull us down into the muck.
Brian was also rather contradictory on the point he was trying to make. If he truly believes that it doesn’t matter what major these football players study, then why did he choose to refer to Film Theater and Television as an “obvious joke major?” Why would that matter if his original point stands? If the reference to Notre Dame wasn’t “remotely essential to the point being made,” then why did Brian even bring it up? Shits and giggles?
The shame of Michigan is that it’s “a top flight academic institution” that has chosen to alienate the football program from that tradition for the sake of having a “consistently excellent football program.” Notre Dame has chosen to embrace their athletic programs, not cull them out into separate, quasi-student categories.
I know a lot of really smart guys from Michigan, so it disappoints me to see so many Michigan grads defend the athletic department’s behavior. I guess smarts don’t necessarily correlate with scruples.
If you really have a problem with me commenting on Brian’s post, feel free to not read this blog.
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By domer.mq August 12, 2007 - 7:41 pm
Huss,
“Jesus reincarnate?” Really?
Like I mentioned to Brad, Brian dragged us into the argument. As an alum of ND, I do not wish to be dragged into the muck with programs that simply look at their revenue generating athletic programs as separate elements that provide symbiotic benefits. Brian’s entire argument is that it’s ok that Michigan just uses their football players for good football because, despite not getting a valuable education, at an EDUCATIONAL INSTITUTION, they do get really nifty “life lessons” from being part of a team. Gee, that’s really neat. Too bad there’s just no way they could get an education AND those swell life lessons.
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By Nate (ltdomer98) August 12, 2007 - 8:31 pm
Was David’s “defense” of including those players as sociology majors citing DOUBLE majors? Sure, that makes Brian’s point–”see, ND does it too–oh, wait…they’re double majors? Um…”
Yep. Genius.
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By brad August 12, 2007 - 9:59 pm
Domer,
I have scruples, and it is beyond clear that UM does also embrace their athletic programs. Find the ratio of ex-M football players and ex-ND football players who are living in poverty or less than adequate conditions, appearing to have been shunned by their alma mater and you will probably note two things: 1. The gross values of each are very small, and 2. The ratio is very close to one.
Also, made clear by various posters in the blogoshpere is the fact that the General Studies degree at UM is not so much The Easiest Sheepskin on the Planet as a flexible degree program recognized by the Regents of the University of Michigan, which you just admitted was a top flight institution, as a worthy course of study. It is a perfectly plausible degree program that includes the same basic course-level requirements that all the other degrees do. Student-athletes have to take high level courses in order to graduate. Obviously, its a no-brainer that this should be a requirement, and it is a requirement.
If UM were actually shepherding the football players into General Studies, wouldn’t all the athletes be there? The fact is that there is a degree program at Michigan that incidentally has a lot of the characteristics that a student-athlete would want in a program. Word gets around that you can practice football when you need to while taking a full course-load, and people naturally start to cluster. This is not surprising and has also been beaten to death elsewhere.
I have to say again, you must not have gotten the point in the original post, as the point was that a Notre Dame football player can go through an undergraduate program called Film, Television and Theater and be perfectly well prepared for life after college/football in the event that he does not become a professional football player. This is at least in part because the personal values gained through playing on a team in an organized sport, especially one as high-profile and pressure-intensive as ND’s, have much more to give a person than their inherent niftiness.
Finally, I understand very well that I am free to read or not read your blog, but are you surprised that I came over here after you dropped a link to your site inside mgoblog? Where do you think Huss and I came here from? If you have a problem reading the other side of the arguement inside your comment space, for goodness’ sake don’t drop your links there.
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By domer.mq August 12, 2007 - 10:08 pm
Brad,
I have absolutely no problem with you leaving comments on this blog. In fact, I enjoy them. I simply invited you not to read the blog if it bothered you so much that I take offense when ND is accused of operating just like Michigan.
You don’t get my point. If it’s true that, really, no matter what major a ND or Michigan football player studies, they’ll still get all the worthwhile “education” they need because of their nifty values and life lessons from the team environment, how can Brian call any major, including FTT, a joke major? There’s no logic in that.
I think the keyword within the context of the General Studies major is “flexible.” I wonder why such a relatively small portion of non-athlete undergrads don’t find General Studies attractive.
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By brad August 12, 2007 - 10:33 pm
Domer,
If that was really your entire point, then I’m sorry, I’ve probably been wasting my time. I thought your point was that Michigan shepherd’s its football players through unusually easy majors (which we established earlier don’t exist at UM) while Notre Dame does not.
Anyway, I suppose most students that did not come to UM under the pretext of representing the school on the ballfield or basketball court while receiving a high-level education free of charge have dominating interests that do not include playing professional sports and have spent considerable time prior to coming to school figuring out what we like most and would like to spend 40 (30? Do I hear 30?) years doing in an effort to improve/advance the world while making ourselves comfortable to retire. Many football players are probably simply not interested in one specific course of study, and we know many of them expect to end up in professional football when they enter school. At UM, this uncertainty is met with a helping hand, if one is necessary, through the concept of a degree program that does not require the student to specifically choose his future profession. He leaves the school with a well-rounded education, once revered as the hallmark of a college degree.
Anyway, again, this was supposed to be all about Stanford, and here we go on and on. I’m glad you like the comments though. Clearly I am enjoying myself too, or I would be off doing something else. Don’t go thinking you are getting a hug or anything though.
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By Veritas Aequitas August 12, 2007 - 11:23 pm
http://www.ndkgreen.com/2007/08/general-studies.html
Wow that sounds legitimate
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By DanK August 13, 2007 - 1:02 am
OK, removing hostility…truce offered, etc.
http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/ scho…uideplayers.pdf
this is from the ND media guide:
total players with a declared avenue of study: 57…this includes those who are in Arts&Letters and business, with no specific major. they are the ‘just out of FYS (1st yr studies)sophs,’ apparently.
total in business school declared or otherwise: 29
the discrep between Brian & HLS is different sources: i think Brian got his info from the media guide as i did. HLS data came from the website, but the numbers are acutally pretty similar (mostly +-1) when you see the media guide: brians numbers include what appear to be double majors (perhaps major + minor???). ie, there are 5 soc majors, but 2 soc + filmTV, 1 Soc + Computer Apps (Zibby i think) and 1 poly Sci + soc, and 1 soc + business i think. that’s 5+2+1+1+1 (+1…clue ref!! -ed) who have included Soc in their bio in one way or another. so both are correct, from a certain point of view (+1…SW ref!! -ed). but the real issue is the Business majors:
of all who have decided upon an avenue of study (57), 29 are in the business school..so precisely 50% of declared ND football players are on track for the nebulous/quote-unquote/whateverthatmeans *** Business degree.
so, 50% is ~2.6 times the 18-19% total enrollment average in the ND B school. that is a significant difference.
so….are ND football players preferentially forced/shoved into a business degree? these numbers don’t necessarily say that, do they? i don’t think that’s the case. personally, i think it says that, of all the degree options at ND, Business degrees are the most appealing (who the hell knows what the reason is…you’ll have to poll the players). now, are M players (who go into BGS, at what, a 55-60% clip was it?) shoved into a BGS degree? i don’t think so there either.
at least in the case of M, there are 2 clear & logical reasons why a higher %-age of football players (rel to gen student pop) would choose the BGS degree: 1) no for Lang & B) greater flexibility in choosing upper level courses.
if there are any clear & logical reasons for ND football players to choose business degrees at such a comparitively large rate relative to the Gen student body, please let me know. maybe classes are offered T/Th for 75min instead of MWF for 50 min?
***i don’t say this to rip on ND’s B school degrees…really, it’s a comment on the way the GS degrees are portrayed…..people aren’t familiar with them so they call them nebulous/use scare quotes, or whatever. from my point of view (a former astrophysics major who knows no one in business) the business degrees are just as ‘nebulous’ or ‘whateverthatmeans’ as the GS degrees are.
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By domer.mq August 13, 2007 - 1:15 am
DanK,
I appreciate your effort to mediate the dispute here.
One thing that will definitely skew the numbers for ND’s business school enrollment of football players: They’re all male (Thanks to the guys at KGreen for pointing this out). Finance, Accounting, and Management Information Systems are all notoriously male-dominated majors at Notre Dame.
Besides that, having known a few football players, they all think they’re either going to learn how to manage all their NFL money, or how to handle their shoe and fast food marketing deals.
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By Pat August 13, 2007 - 10:33 am
I love the classification of Math as an easy major.
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By gwzimm August 13, 2007 - 12:05 pm
Nah, they’re ALL idiots!
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By Sean August 13, 2007 - 6:52 pm
DanK, I tried posting the following at mGoBlog, but Brian quickly deleted it, so I’ll address your argument here…
Using your 50% figure, ND players would be 1.85 times more likely to enroll in the b-school than the general student body.
UM players, on the other hand, are 63 (SIXTY EFFING THREE) times more likely to enroll in general studies than the general student body.
And that’s using YOUR overstated 50% figure! How are you comparing these two situations?!
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By domer.mq August 13, 2007 - 7:00 pm
Not to get on too high a horse here, but I think it’s funny that we’ve manage to have a discussion on this topic here while Brian is busying himself with deleting comments.
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By gwzimm August 14, 2007 - 8:46 am
Michigan is typical of a big state school…mass producers of diplomas….I went to a seminar at Michigan once abiut 20 years ago. I went into the bathroom and someone had written this above the toilet paper roll in one of the stalls:
Michigan diplomas. Take One
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By Her Loyal Sons » As The Worm Turns… March 17, 2008 - 12:12 pm
[...] Amazing how difficult it can be to read and copy down the majors of a college football team for someone with such a self-proclaimed aptitude for “data” analysis. To help Brian out, I’ll just re-link to our response to his original stem of fecal matter. [...]
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By Sir John March 17, 2008 - 12:36 pm
Go Go Go Her Loyal Sons.
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By Johneye March 19, 2008 - 11:30 am
Hey Brad!
I have been reading the four part series of the AA News, might you care to revise this past point of yours……
“I thought your point was that Michigan shepherd’s its football players through unusually easy majors (which we established earlier don’t exist at UM)”
They dont exist? LMFAO!
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